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fajrdrakoReading the LMB mailing list lately has set my mind in strange fannish directions.
I was thinking about the characters in the Bujold novels, and why I like them, and found myself making parallels between Miles Vorkosigan and the Doctor. Things they have in common:
- extraordinarily high intelligence
- a talent for getting into trouble
- both consistently operate on improvisation and impulse
- both have energy levels almost as high as their intelligence
- both take on impossible odds
- both have a sense of guilt
- both love their home planet, but travel in space
- both are, in their own ways, both unique in their society, and misfits
So I looked for a parallel for Captain Jack, and found one in my favourite Bujold character, Aral Vorkosigan:
- both are or have been soldiers
- both are bisexual
- both have been marked for execution
- both have travelled in space (not so rare for SF, though)
- both have had suicidal urges, and have been ready to give their lives for a cause - and have, in fact, been present at a wartime blood-bath where they were the only survivor; Jack at the end of "The Parting of the Ways" and Aral when his mother was killed
I also have no doubt that Aral Vorkosigan wears a very spiffy greatcoat.
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:11 am (UTC)I also have no doubt that Aral Vorkosigan wears a very spiffy greatcoat.
Very likely.
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:15 am (UTC)... or drive everyone around them completely nuts. Or both. Heh.
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:42 am (UTC)(Excuse me while I admire your lovely icon for a while.)
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:41 am (UTC)They have certain characteristics that are unusual in heroic characters, and which they share - I can't think of any other heroes with their kind of manic 'forward momentum' and human sympathy.
I also figure that they'd drive each other completely nuts. :-)
I think they'd adore each other - but beware, world!
(I'd love for someone to attempt a crossover of some kind.)
I'm not sure I could ever write Miles. I might like to try.
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 02:51 am (UTC)There are two good places to start. The first is the chronological beginning of the story, "Shards of Honor" (http://www.amazon.com/Shards-Honor-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/1886778205/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9729185-9665231?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180665934&sr=8-1), which was republished with the next book in the series ("Barrayar" (http://www.amazon.com/Barrayar-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/067172083X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-9729185-9665231?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180666001&sr=1-3)) as Cordelia's Honor (http://www.amazon.com/Cordelias-Honor-Hugo-Winners/dp/0671578286/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9729185-9665231?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180666106&sr=1-1).
The next good place to start is with The Warrior's Apprentice (http://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Apprentice-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/067172066X). This is also published in a combination volume called Young Miles (http://www.amazon.com/Young-Miles-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/0743436164/ref=sr_1_12/105-9729185-9665231?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180666147&sr=1-12).
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Date: 2007-06-01 06:31 am (UTC)Or, at the very least, that he wears a greatcoat very spiffily. *g*
Dear me, am I turning into Simon?!
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Date: 2007-06-01 10:43 am (UTC)Oooh yes.
Dear me, am I turning into Simon?!
There are worse things!
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Date: 2007-06-01 11:56 am (UTC)I think it's a combination of the sort of almost pedantic preciseness that Simon does often employ, together with the use of "spiffy". Puts me in mind of his list messages that start off with "Hi Chaps". *g*
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-04 08:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-04 01:20 pm (UTC)Naw, not possible.
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Date: 2007-06-01 01:43 pm (UTC)I guess I'm being childish, but I'm not looking forward to the book where Aral dies or has died.
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Date: 2007-06-01 02:48 pm (UTC)I'd love to see a good artist draw this.
I'm not looking forward to the book where Aral dies or has died.
I'm not sure why Bujold thinks we have to get this. Nothing makes Aral's death any more inevitable than Miles' or Cordelia's or anyone else's. But she seems to think it's part of the story already, in her head, so I guess it is. I'm sure that if she does it, I will weep. And I hope she doesn't.
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Date: 2007-06-02 08:47 pm (UTC)I looked for a parallel for Captain Jack, and found one in my favourite Bujold character, Aral Vorkosigan
Really? I can see how some of their history parallels, but most of that is external - I don't really see it for their characters. I suppose my primary impression of Aral is intensity; I always think of that bit in ACC when he's put forward to Dono as the best example of projecting power physically, and while Jack can be intense he hides it under the charm and flash - Aral just is, he doesn't hide anything. And while I think Jack is, at bottom, a soldier, what we tend to see is the flirt, the conman, the guy who undercuts things with wild stories and whimisical humour, and I don't see those traits in Aral. Aral has wit (I love the way he phrases things too) but it's... hmm, drier, darker? Jack is a chameleon, elusive behind the babble. Aral is stand up straight and speak the truth.
Plus I can't imagine any Vorkosigan hand-picking a team that was capable of acting as childishly and selfishly as the Torchwood boys and girls have managed so far. Jack could stand to take some people-management lessons from Miles and his parents :-)
I'm sure Aral does have a great coat, though. And they do share a ruthless pragmatism and the unhappy ability to see and pursue the bigger picture at cost.
I'm wondering if Ten could rival Miles for manic now... and if Jack and Miles ever crossed paths, who would win the battle of manipulative charm?
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Date: 2007-06-03 12:49 am (UTC)Personalities are not closely alike but I can certainly see traits they have in common. The main difference I see is that Jack is a chameleon; but Aral, for all he is an honest sort of what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of man, has also spent some of his career in subterfuge and espionage. Both men, under stress, drink. Love is important to each of them. And both have heroic hearts.
I can't imagine any Vorkosigan hand-picking a team that was capable of acting as childishly and selfishly as the Torchwood boys and girls have managed so far.
No, but I can see a Vorkosigan coping with a band of misfits. I am not clear why Jack has chosen the people he has chosen - assuming that he did choose them, I'm also not entirely sure how canonical that is - but the link for Ianto and Tosh does seem to be the Doctor. (Mind you, Ianto and Tosh are the best he has.)
if Jack and Miles ever crossed paths, who would win the battle of manipulative charm?
A close call. I'd love to see it!
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Date: 2007-06-04 08:29 pm (UTC)Okay, let's try this one more time...
I can certainly see traits they have in common
Yes, the more I think about it the more I can see that they do. But the differences for me still outweigh the similarities.
has also spent some of his career in subterfuge and espionage
It's been a while since I've read the Aral-centric books but I didn't have that impression. He's a military strategist, not ImpSec, and I kind of take that to mean he gets the results of the espionage rather than doing it personally. Or were you thinking about the political aspect and being spied on by people in his crew with the kind of manoeuvring that required? I seem to remember that his career difficulties were pretty much down to not hiding his politics and refusing to play the games though. But like I said, it's been while for those books so if I'm missing something I'd be interested to hear it.
I can see a Vorkosigan coping with a band of misfits
Yes, absolutely - and in about a week that band of misfits would be the tightest, most loyal team anyone could have! I think Jack could be that kind of leader, but so far I think he's not been connected enough, or paid enough attention, so the rest of Torchwood is disparate and floundering. And you're right that we don't know if he picked Ianto, Tosh, Owen and Suzie, we only know that he definitely chose Gwen - and what I think that says about his personnel skills depends on how charitable I'm feeling towards Gwen on any given day!
I've been enjoying thinking about this, btw. Cheers for bringing it up.
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Date: 2007-06-04 09:03 pm (UTC)For the 'espionage' angle in Aral's life, I was thinking primarily of the events of "Shards of Honour", where he pretended to be one thing -having a miliary role with regard to Prince Serg and Emperor Ezar - but was actually on a mission to get Serg and his cronies obliterated. And was, meanwhile, caught up in various kinds of intrigue regarding the man whose name I forget, the KGB type who wanted him dead.
I see even more resemblance to Jack in the Aral who was ready to simply drink himself to death because of what he had done, and his apparent loss of Cordelia. And, as Jack would - he pulled through, failed to die, and rose to greater heights.
The Torchwood personnel do seem like a sorry bunch and I'm actually not sure why Jack doesn't fire the lot of them after their various misdeeds. I would. But I'm sure he has reasons for keeping them.
Don't get me wrong - I like them each in terms of personality and story roles - but I wouldn't trust them in my top-secret organization!
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Date: 2007-06-05 05:27 pm (UTC)Yeah, pretty much - I hope I didn't rain on your parade there, btw. I just thought it was an interesting comparison to make and you got me thinking. I was wondering about Jack in the military as well - I think Jack would act differently in the military but he'd never be able to use that style with his team because none of them have military training and so they'd respond all wrong! Whereas Aral has the advantage of people surrounding him conditioned to respond to officers in a certain way...
I hadn't really thought of the Escobar thing being espionage, but I can see it now - and I can't remember the political officer guy's name either.
I like them each in terms of personality and story roles - but I wouldn't trust them in my top-secret organization!
Hee! Me either. I'd throw them all out and start again... well, except maybe Ianto. And Tosh. (After I'd very carefully explained the rules and maybe beaten them over the head with them for a bit.)
Okay, I'd just get rid of Gwen and Owen.
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Date: 2007-06-05 05:38 pm (UTC)No, not at all, I'm enjoying the conversation.
he'd never be able to use that style with his team because none of them have military training and so they'd respond all wrong!
Yes. He's (ahem) flexible and uses the management style he thinks most appropriate. And he doesn't think of himself as a 'real boss', which I think is telling.
Whereas Aral has the advantage of people surrounding him conditioned to respond to officers in a certain way...
Not just in terms of military rank, but civilian rank as well. Aral is an aristocrat and an officer before he even gets roles such as Regent and Prime Minister and Governor. He's accustomed to clear command however you cut it.
I'd throw them all out and start again... well, except maybe Ianto.
I think a 'real boss' would be unable to overlook the Cyberwoman incident to the extent that Jack did. But I can certainly understand Jack's wanting to keep Ianto around because (a) he's good at what he does when he's motivated, (b) he's resourceful, (c) he's fiercely loyal once his loyalty is earned, and (d) he's cute. I like Jack's management style, it's almost anarchistic enough to suite me.
And Tosh.
In some ways I think Tosh was worst of all, blabbing Torchwood business to a pretty girl who picked her up in a bar - well, excluding "End of Days", which was a special occasion. I might want to give Tosh another chance, because I love Tosh, but she'd be on probation for a long time! I'd make her write "I will not talk about Torchwood business to strangers" five hundred times a day. Longhand. In calligraphy.
I'd just get rid of Gwen and Owen.
Hee. Admittedly, it's not every employee who is forgiven for murdering the boss. Forgiven by the boss himself, yet.
Bottom line: Jack's primary talent is to think like a con man, not a military man or a businessman. He's made it his thing, and for him, it works.
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Date: 2007-06-05 07:04 pm (UTC)Yes, of course, clear lines of rank everywhere you look. And being accustomed to command makes you commanding in a particular way, I think. The trick of commanding obedience being to have no conception that you could possibly be disobeyed and that makes other people believe it too, and all that. I think it's interesting that you say Jack's primary mindset is conman - clearly it is, just from the way he behaves and leads, but the few pieces of canon we do know are that he has been military several times. But aside from the first time, I think it's quite likely that being in the military was part of a larger game for Jack so it isn't something he's lived as real for a long time, so he stays divorced a little from the mindset.
I get Jack's reasons for keeping Ianto around too, for all the ones you've listed plus I think Jack has a sympathy for the reason why Ianto did it: big, passionate love.
I'd make her write "I will not talk about Torchwood business to strangers" five hundred times a day. Longhand. In calligraphy.
Heh, that was pretty much what I was thinking about beating them with the rules (Ianto would get "I will not endanger the world by confusing personal with important"... actually, all of them could have that one). I wasn't happy about Tosh's behaviour there; surely if you've been picked up by a mind reader and you work for a secret organisation, your response should be to leave, not sit down for a cosy chat! But I can see that part of it was from feeling marginalised in the team, and I think some of that at least was down to Jack's management. But kept on probation, definitely.
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Date: 2007-06-05 08:10 pm (UTC)Especially when it's been with you since childhood - when you are born son of a count, and when you go to military school from an early age.
I think it's interesting that you say Jack's primary mindset is conman - clearly it is, just from the way he behaves and leads, but the few pieces of canon we do know are that he has been military several times.
Yes, and we saw how easily he can snap into military mode in "Boom Town", and how easily he picks up the mantle in "The Empty Child" and "Captain Jack Harkness". However true that is, I think Jack is so adaptable, and has learned so many hard lessons, that his con man flexibility - the skill of being what he needs to be at any given time, or at least giving the illusion of being that - is his primary mode.
so he stays divorced a little from the mindset.
I think he can see its usefulness, and to some extent it will always be with him, but it isn't what he has become.
I think Jack has a sympathy for the reason why Ianto did it: big, passionate love.
Oh yes. Jack can understand that.
Ianto would get "I will not endanger the world by confusing personal with important"... actually, all of them could have that one
So true.
if you've been picked up by a mind reader and you work for a secret organisation, your response should be to leave, not sit down for a cosy chat!
At the very least, report it. I know Tosh was stressed, distressed, seduced and confused, but that's no excuse!
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Date: 2007-06-05 03:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-05 12:47 pm (UTC)Yes - and so very cute. On either man.
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Date: 2007-06-05 09:10 pm (UTC)