Torchwood: Captain Jack's childhood...

[fajrdrako]

I was thinking about what we do know and what we don't know about Captain Jack. He appears to be in his thirties and American, but we know that's largely an illusion - he's an immortal of unknown age, presumably from the 51st century - even that leaves room for fudging, since he might have gone to the 51st century from another time.

So do any Torchwood fans here have any theories as to his original background? We know from his comments to the other Jack in "Captain Jack Harkness" that he went to war when young - though we don't know exactly how young. Are there any other clues?

Would would you speculate? Did he choose to appear as an American just to cover the Captain Jack Harkness identity? What kind of a family do you think he came from? A nuclear family? Or something more futuristic and outre? Two parents, or more? Fewer? None? Siblings? Schooling? Was he born on a poverty-stricken post-holocaust world, or did he come from a comfortable middle-class background, or was he a scion of a wealthy ruling class?

Any ideas?

Cross-posted to torch_wood.

Comments

[beccaelizabeth]

the actual answer is boring: we don't and can't know yet. Old school Who canon may well not apply on account of Time War. New canon hasn't said anything more about Jack's home timeline since he was invented. So there's no restrictions on who or what he could be, nothing much to play with, and only one unreliable guy's account of any of it as hints.


I do find it more fun in fic when people seem to have noticed this is SF. Has more possibilities. The cultural experiences of his childhood, his norms and values, his expectations, they just aren't going to be the same as any 20th or 21st century viewer. I mean they vary wildly enough from decade to decade in the same small bit of geography. It bugs me when a story randomly has him recognise the same kid's story as a guy his apparent age might without any explanation. Because he didn't come here as a kid, so knowing kid's stories would either suggest interesting backstory where he reads them to local time kids or would be a bit odd.

Inventing Jack's background means either some solid SF worldbuilding or a whole lot of ignoring. Canon seems to be doing mostly the latter.




I still like my idea he used to be a girl or is a hermaphrodite. Cause that would be fun. Just rather tenuously based on canon.



I liked the fic I read that had him preparing to take Ianto back to 51st century, and it turns out it was mostly like WWII only less fun.


I also kind of like the idea there were wars like WWII only without the clear idea of who the bad guys were, or possibly the realising the bad guys is the ones he was working for. Cause that has mileage.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the actual answer is boring: we don't and can't know yet.

Very true. Until Jack tells us, we don't have anything much to go on. i was astounded and pleased when we got his own account of trauma in youth in war in "Captain Jack Harkness", but it could - by necessity, of course - fit into just about any culture in just about any time.

only one unreliable guy's account of any of it as hints

I think the Doctor knew more, and by implication he confirms that Jack is from the 51st century, though there are numerous levels of fudge factor there.

I do find it more fun in fic when people seem to have noticed this is SF.

I agree. I'm trying to remember the title and author of the story in which Jack had five parents - two fathers, two mothers, and an bisexed alien. I like the idea that his childhood was very different from what anyone of our time would imagine as a normal childhood.

The cultural experiences of his childhood, his norms and values, his expectations, they just aren't going to be the same as any 20th or 21st century viewer.

No. The Doctor described his time as much more sexually free than our own. That's a hint, wherever it might take us. (Assuming the Doctor's assumptions there were true, and that Jack really is a 51st century kind of guy. But I see nothing that contradicts this.)

so knowing kid's stories would either suggest interesting backstory where he reads them to local time kids or would be a bit odd.

Well - John Barrowman read kid's stories on TV. Maybe that was one of Jack's part-time jobs under an alias.

Or maybe Jack at one time spent time with kids of our era - as a teacher or caretaker.

Inventing Jack's background means either some solid SF worldbuilding

Which I would like to see - which is why I asked the question.

or a whole lot of ignoring. Canon seems to be doing mostly the latter.Torchwood but it stays rather firmly in the point of view of the team, rather than Jack, with a few unhelpful exceptions.

I still like my idea he used to be a girl or is a hermaphrodite. Cause that would be fun.

And fits in with his remark that he's been pregnant. I would argue - and have done so in the past - that Jack has a very androgynous personality, his anima and animus unusually balanced. Which is why sometimes he can appear very tough and macho - cowboyish - and at other times is very nurturing, loving and gentle.

I liked the fic I read that had him preparing to take Ianto back to 51st century, and it turns out it was mostly like WWII only less fun.

That sounds interesting! I don't suppose you remember the author or title?

PS on being American

[beccaelizabeth]

I think he's pretending to be American because he's working everywhere-except-America; being a bit foreign wherever you go is an inevitable side effect of time travel, and Americans have that wonderful reputation of being oblivious to cultures and places and histories outside their borders that just covers up personal lacks in those areas.

... I, er, need to apologise to America now, don't I?
... It's a stereotype, it don't gots to be true.

Re: PS on being American

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think he's pretending to be American because he's working everywhere-except-America; being a bit foreign wherever you go is an inevitable side effect of time travel

That's a very interesting observation I hadn't thought of. I had thought that he probably pretended to be American because he was taking Captain Jack's identity and could do the accent; your reasoning is plausible. (It doesn't mean Americans are oblivious, just that non-Americans think they will be.)

I was also playing with the idea that he was originally born within two hundred years of our own time - past or future - a time when the U.S.A. exists and so he actually could be American, but was taken up by aliens or time travellers to the 51st century.

Another possibility is that he came from one of those pseudo-American planets we see so often in Doctor Who or Star Trek, like New-to-the-power-of-fifteen New York.

[andreawashere.livejournal.com]

I do believe he grew up in a loving home, with a whole lot of younger sisters who basically adored their big brother. Don't know why, I just think he did.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It sounds nice! It would explain how well he relates to women.

So... do you think he lost that loving home in the war?

[andreawashere.livejournal.com]

I don't think so. He's been through that horrible incident with his best friend during the war, and I think he must have had that loving home to patch him up after the war. Had he also lost his family, I don't think he would so easily be happy again with the Doctor and Rose. If that makes any sense...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Had he also lost his family, I don't think he would so easily be happy again with the Doctor and Rose. If that makes any sense...

You mean it would be difficult for him to love and trust to that extent, if he had not known that kind of environment before?

Perhaps. Or perhaps he would value and want it all the more.

I was thinking of him as being orphaned before the war - but I have dozens of 'young Jack' scenarios as possibilities in my mind, none of them definitive. Yet.

[puritybrown.livejournal.com]

I think we can take it from Jack's description of the enemy as "the worst creatures you can imagine" that the war was against the Daleks. I think we can also take it that the war started shortly before he and his friend signed up, because he was naive enough to think that it would be "an adventure", and if he'd lived through war, he probably wouldn't have thought that -- unless he lived an exceptionally sheltered life.

Either way, I think anything that happened before he and his friend got captured is basically irrelevant: my Jacktheory is that that event was so traumatic that after it happened, Jack wanted to wipe himself clean -- and that's why he's so cavalier about moving around and abandoning old personas; he doesn't want to be the person that that happened to. He wants to shed his old self like a snake's skin. This is impossible, of course, but that doesn't stop him trying. Of course with each additional iteration of Jack, he accumulates new experiences that he wants to forget...

[beccaelizabeth]

I think we can take it from Jack's description of the enemy as "the worst creatures you can imagine" that the war was against the Daleks.

I didn't think so, on account of Torchwood seems to me to have a whole humans=monsters thing going on, and also Daleks can suck the brains out of that dude at Torchwood so why would they need to do torture?

I think we can also take it that the war started shortly before he and his friend signed up, because he was naive
We were reading in Intro Lit last week about first world war poetry and how it changed from just before the war when it was all flag waving to when there was actual war when it was pretty much a lot of dying badly.

Also suspect Jack's was a foreign war, a going places war, because wars that come to you are not an adventure.


Interesting about the self-switching.

[puritybrown.livejournal.com]

I didn't think so, on account of Torchwood seems to me to have a whole humans=monsters thing going on

The show does, sure. That doesn't mean that Jack sees it that way. Given that he's one of the "monsters" (think of the way the others react to things he does -- he's the most trigger-happy of the TW3 crew, and the one most likely to receive a horrified stare after making a tactical decision to use violence), I doubt that he does.

and also Daleks can suck the brains out of that dude at Torchwood so why would they need to do torture?

You're assuming that the purpose of torture is to get information -- it's actually very ineffective at that. The real purpose of torture is to intimidate the populace. If you can't or don't want to kill the entire population, one way to keep them in line is to torture some of them in such a way that all the others know. That way they think twice about crossing you. People who will willingly face death might not be so willing to face torture. Jack does not describe his experience as an interrogation: what he says is that his friend was tortured to death in front of him "because he was weaker" and he (Jack) was let go. The only way it makes sense for Jack to be let go is if the torture was done as a warning.

[beccaelizabeth]

That makes sense.

I knew that about torture not working but Torchwood-the-show doesn't seem to, 1-06.

Torture as control is sensible.

Except I thought Daleks pretty much exterminate. You know, famously.
I guess they've been doing sneaky control stuff as well a lot of the time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I knew that about torture not working but Torchwood-the-show doesn't seem to, 1-06.

I think "Countrycide" proves the point - Jack had to intimidate his victim into thinking dire tortures were in store. He didn't have to do much at all.

Except I thought Daleks pretty much exterminate. You know, famously.

Yes, they're known for it. But now we've seen that Daleks can adapt to different situations and I suspect they'd enjoy hurting people - whatever 'enjoyment' might mean for a Dalek.

I guess they've been doing sneaky control stuff as well a lot of the time.

The implication is that they don't conquer, they just destroy. But they'd have to use a lot of tactics while conquering.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Given that he's one of the "monsters"

I think the show has a nicely relativistic feel to it. Look at the Weevils in comparison to the men fighting them in "Combat". Sympathy is with the Weevils - not gentle creatures, but lost empathic beings from another world who are confused and endangered in our society. But there are many good people in Torchwood, too, and a mood of compassion towards humanity's flaws. Jack himself is a sort of ultimate hero. Sure, he gets called a monster, and is hated for his actions - but that's injustice and misunderstanding. He's also a scapegoat, blamed for harm when he is only a witness to it.

There are some very bad aliens, and some very bad humans, and some of each who are good. And many who are neither particularly good or bad. Look at Tosh's conversation with Gwen at the end of "Greeks Bearing Gifts" where Tosh says she can't take the high moral ground and Gwen says "neither can I".

I'm sure the Daleks are masters of intimidation. It strikes me as not at all surprising that they would torture someone. They might do it to scare their enemies, or because they had reasons to experiment with a human, or because it improves their morale to see an enemy suffer. It doesn't seem out of character or unlikely to me.

Especially since, in the framework of the recent Doctor Who stories about Daleks, there seems to be a certain amount of widening their scope.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Daleks can suck the brains out of that dude at Torchwood so why would they need to do torture?

For fun?

Also suspect Jack's was a foreign war, a going places war, because wars that come to you are not an adventure.

He did say he left home to join the army, which means he was not conscripted, and that he wasn't on home ground.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think we can take it from Jack's description of the enemy as "the worst creatures you can imagine" that the war was against the Daleks.

I have always thought that, and find the arguments against it weak. It doesn't quite match with Jack's comments on Daleks in "The Parting of the Ways" but it doesn't contradict it, either.

I like your theory of Jack abandoning old personas and shedding his old self, but I'm still curious about the orignial Jack, the child Jack, both geographically and genetically.

[andreawashere.livejournal.com]

I think we can take it from Jack's description of the enemy as "the worst creatures you can imagine" that the war was against the Daleks.

I don't think Jack meant the Daleks. If it had been the Daleks who tortured and killed his friend, wouldn't his reaction in BW/PotW been different? He expects people to be killed, but he never seems to expect anything 'worse'. When he faces them at the end, he's all 'Go ahead and kill me'. Not a trace of fear that they might have somrthing different in mind.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If it had been the Daleks who tortured and killed his friend, wouldn't his reaction in BW/PotW been different?

I really don't know. It seems to me likely that it's the Daleks for various reasons, but there's no clear evidence. I would agree that Jack's reactions to the Daleks in "Bad Wolf" don't imply that background - but Jack is a con man who is used to covering up his real feelings and thoughts, and he wanted to present himself as brave and competent for the Doctor. I'm still thinking about all these ideas and possibilities.

Given the unviverse we're dealing with, what is or could be worse than the Daleks, in Jack's eyes?

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

There's quite a few clues that he grew up/was a young adult in a major war. Obviously he talks about going to war in CJH, and he also mentions the Daleks being a massive threat prior to the Time War in tPotW. Jack also seems most at home in the 1940s, so I think there's a fair chance that there may be significant parallels between the world he grew up in and WW2 Britain.

Venturing further into wild speculation, I'd say he came from a middle-class or upper-class background, based on his past employment as a Time Agent. I suspect the Time Agency is a fairly elite force and, well, it's generally easier for the children of the middle classes to get into those sort of jobs (a classless future strikes me as unlikely in Whoniverse). Also, he just seems kind of middle class for reasons I can't quite put my finger on.

No idea about his family structure and I can't think of an occassion when he's reacted to family-type plotlines in a way that would give us any clues. I think he's probably an orphan though, and doesn't have any living siblings in his own time, since he's never expressed any desire to go back there.

The American accent may well be fake - as beccaelizabeth says, it covers a multitude of sins, as he can put any lack of knowledge about local customs or whatever down to being American. It's an acceptable form of otherness. (As an aside, I think the future humans the Doctor mets mostly have British accents, though I'm not sure there's any significance to that beyond it being a British TV show.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There's quite a few clues that he grew up/was a young adult in a major war.

And plenty of clues that he has been a soldier. And that he has great admiration for soldiers and warriors.

he just seems kind of middle class for reasons I can't quite put my finger on.

Interesting. My guess or speculation was the opposite - that he was perhaps orphaned by the war, or grew up in poverty, or on a post-holocaust world. I have also wondered if he was at some point fostered by someone rich, or if he came from a wealthy family which was plunged into poverty or destroyed when he was very young, so he lost the advantages in life he might otherwise have had.

I think the future humans the Doctor mets mostly have British accents, though I'm not sure there's any significance to that beyond it being a British TV show.

Well, most of the actors are English, though I think it's a shame that Tennant and Barrowman don't use their Scots accents. I think the main reason they all sound British is that this sounds normal to the TARDIS, which is translating everything for us.

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

Jack's a mongrel when it comes to species identification, but ticks the human checkbook on forms since he's at least 70% human, and that's what counts on the forms. Do to his non-human heritage, he doesn't have a fixed sex, but can regulate his/her hormones to be either male or female. But to some sketchy genetics, he would have more luck carrying a child than fathering one.

The parenting structure norm was three adults, and than he's in the middle of an unknown number of siblings - but by the time the war rolled around, he was the oldest child still at home. He has at least two older siblings, and one that was six or younger when he left home.

Jack's not from Earth, but from a former human settlement that intermingled extensively with the original inhabiter's of the planet. I'm not sure what implications would be, other than what Jack grew up with was a base-eight counting system that for a very long time was the only system he could do higher maths in, and the writing system that he still keeps his datebooks in is a curcioutus-looking script that runs right to left.

One of Jack's first exposures to 20th century English was Glen Miller, specifically, "This is the Army, Mr. Jones." He learned to sing it before he learned the language, and even now when he sings the tune, a trace of his original accent shows up.

One of his parents died during the war when the munitions factory they were working at got bombed. One his older siblings died fighting, or so everyone hopes as they were MIA and the family prefers that they were killed in action instead of being tortured to death in the camps. Another one of his other older siblings was a medic in the war.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the war, so I don't have any ideas of what Jack did before his capture - but afterwards, when there wasn't so much as a peace but a cessation of active hostilities, he was a professional torturer after learning a lot watching others being tortured in the camps.

More fuzziness when it comes to transitioning from the military to the Time Agency! Other than being a slight thing for history and swing music and that it got him far away from his home.

His partner at the Time Agency gave him the name James Harper on a job.

The Agency ate up a lot of his time, but he began settling down with someone he met at a 51st century version of a bar. It was a little tense, as Jack was a workaholic and the Agency ate up a lot of his personal life. This experience is one of the reasons that Jack tells his co-workers not to let they're partners drift away. Jack isn't quite sure what put the nail in the coffin of that relationship, as the two years that got stolen from him contained the end - he only figured that out after he saw ex at the bar with someone new, and a passer-by said that his ex had been with that person for over a year. ( I'm fiddling with the idea that time Jack got pregent was with this partner, and the baby didn't live longer than six months, and Jack "delt" by throwing himself further into his work. )

Jack found out that his memories had been stolen after falling asleep on the couch in the lounge of the Time Agency and waking up two centuries in the past with a new haircut, a bit more masculine looking, and his wristband registering that Jack was two years older by his relative time line. I think that he left the agency, and they tried to wipe his mind of his entire time there - but only got those two years.

Jack hasn't seen his family since he's left the Time Agency. Which he's still wanted by.

I think that's it. And I have really, really over thought this to the point of insanity, haven't I?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack's a mongrel when it comes to species identification

What a beautiful way to start! I like that.

he doesn't have a fixed sex, but can regulate his/her hormones to be either male or female.

And currently chooses male because - why? Because it makes it easier to function as a cover warrior in 21st century Wales?

he would have more luck carrying a child than fathering one

If we judge by canon, on the face of it, he's been a mother but not a father.

and the writing system that he still keeps his datebooks in is a curcioutus-looking script that runs right to left.

I love that. I love arcane scripts. Alien scripts. Interlac, Kryptonian, the writing in The Impossible Planet that not even the TARDIS could read. When Jack's using this script, does he write with his left hand?

His partner at the Time Agency gave him the name James Harper on a job.

I like that idea. No relation to Owen, hmm?

Jack was a workaholic

Sounds right. Sounds inevitable.

falling asleep on the couch in the lounge of the Time Agency and waking up two centuries in the past with a new haircut,

Yes! Wonderful!

his wristband registering that Jack was two years older by his relative time line

I like the idea that his wristband keeps track of his personal chronology.

I have really, really over thought this to the point of insanity, haven't I?

Not at all. You've simply looked at the situation intelligently and sanely and rationally. After all, an obsession with Captain Jack is a sign of good taste and good mental health. Isn't it?

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

And currently chooses male because - why? Because it makes it easier to function as a cover warrior in 21st century Wales?

Mostly, for something that beccaelizabeth wrote: He's also currently believed to be a he, but given that that's the most advantageous option in the last few thousand years that could be more of a professional choice. And given the fact that I don't recall ever seeing in cannon that the women-shaped people are ever in charge ( though my Who cannon is spotty ): it's either misogynistic or egalitarian. Mostly the latter, but it's helpful to be man-shaped in the former. Plus, adding in the places that Jack mentioned conducting his cons in ( WWII London, and 79 CE Pompeii ) both places were more advantageous being male. After that, it's what the Doctor and Rose would recognize him.


When Jack's using this script, does he write with his left hand?

I'm not sure - it depends on whether or not Jack's ambidextrous or not, because John Barroman is right-handed ( at least, I'm pretty sure he is ) so Jack's been writing ( in English ) with his right and doing things right handed. But hey, Jack's a flexible guy, so I'll say that he does write left-handed with that system, at least.

His partner at the Time Agency gave him the name James Harper on a job.

I like that idea. No relation to Owen, hmm?

No, but I'm playing about with the idea that Owen's grandmother - who someone's fannon taught Owen about lay lines - knew Estelle, and the American that she was going with.

I like the idea that his wristband keeps track of his personal chronology.

It's the only way I can figure that you can have agents returning to a fix time without meeting themselves - and making it so much easier to pay them for jobs that start and end before the agency exists.

After all, an obsession with Captain Jack is a sign of good taste and good mental health. Isn't it?

Very much so! I was just worried because a lot of this is has absolutely no groundings in cannon - though most of it is a distillation of fannon that I've seen about.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Your scenario is logical and I like it. I'm not entirely sold on it - other scenarios are fun too - but it's imaginative and smart and it fits what we know. Especially about the wristband keeping track of agents' chronology. Now, since Jack doesn't want to be tracked by the Agency, he has probably dismantled some of it - but kept all the useful bits.

In fact, tangentially, you've just given me a story idea. Hmm. Add that to the list. Thank you!

I don't think there's any evidence of it at all, but it seems to me that Jack should be ambidextrous.

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

I always kinda assumed that what we take as an American accent, is just a generic 51st century way of speaking for Jack.

And as for his past, I've always assumed he had a sibling, and usually a sister, can't focus on the idea of him having a male close to his age. But the way he speaks too/relates too women...just screams of someone who had a female who was a few years older and a few years wiser thumping him every time he did something dumb.

I also assumed that the Time Agency was kinda like the FBI, and that his family was kinda just shoved into that niche. Him and his sister both work for it. I've actually used memories of that in a story I've been working on.

He remembers his sister, and they're obviously very close. And she one of the things he remembers is her in a time agents uniform.

He makes some vauge comment about 'Harkness' kids being independant, and that if she needs him, she'll find him.

I really should do a sis/bro tale with them in it. Problem being, now that we know Harkness isn't his real name, then what do I call him?

Now you've got my brain all working and I've got two stories on the table allready. Not sure to hug you or get grumpy, as my muse is currently on vacation lol.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always kinda assumed that what we take as an American accent, is just a generic 51st century way of speaking for Jack.

But presumably they aren't still speaking American English in the 51st century, and there's no TARDIS around now to translate for him. Perhaps he originally learned 21st century English from an American. Or perhaps in the Time Agency they learn languages by taking a pill and he took the one labelled "English, American accent, 20th century".

can't focus on the idea of him having a male close to his age.

Any reason why not?

But the way he speaks too/relates too women...just screams of someone who had a female who was a few years older and a few years wiser thumping him every time he did something dumb.

LOL. Wasn't that Rose's job, for a while?

Cool!


I really should do a sis/bro tale with them in it.

I would like that. Do you picture his sister as being like him? Somehow the idea brings to mind Vala from Stargate-SG1. Only with better dialogue.

Problem being, now that we know Harkness isn't his real name, then what do I call him?

You could write in the first person, so it wouldn't matter.

You could just call him "Jack" without the "Harkness". Or "Agent Jack" or something like that.

Hmm. That's a puzzler.

Now you've got my brain all working and I've got two stories on the table allready

Me too. Only it's more than two. Every day I say, "I'll get one of those posted today," but I'm not catching up. I'm writing new stuff. This is good. Sort of. But the old stories languish.

Not sure to hug you or get grumpy

I'll take the hug, pass on the grumpiness.

[andreawashere.livejournal.com]

And as for his past, I've always assumed he had a sibling, and usually a sister, can't focus on the idea of him having a male close to his age.

A same sex sibling means competition, even if it's friendly and playful. I don't think Jack had to face any competition during his childhood and adolescence. I still believe there were at least six younger sisters, advising him how to dress, sharing all secrets (little) women have with him, telling him which kids at school had a crush on him and which one would turn him down, so he knew exactly who he could ask for a date, and always get an "OH YES" for an answer. :)

And thinking about it, I think the war must have been abroad. Slightly spoilt, from a happy family in a safe environment, always succesful, a Jack like that would see a war as an adventure. A child growing up during a war, always facing the risk of losing loved ones, would have had other motives to join the army.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

An interesting scenario, and plausible! I rather like the idea of Jack with a pile of sisters... But I still have trouble picturing him with the kind of stable background this implies.

I continue to think about it.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Jack Harkness - Internationalgalactic Man of Mystery!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's him! What we know about Jack would fit a thimble. What we don't know about him would fill the Encyclopedia Galactica.

Poor Gwen has the same problem - along with Tosh, Owen and Ianto. And drat it all, they are our viewpoints of Jack in Torchwood.

At least he's willing to talk openly to the Doctor, so we should learn more soon.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Well, it helps that the Doctor is also a time-traveller from another planet…

It's interesting, working out the best way of dealing in fic with a character whose experience of time (or space) is somewhat beyond the norm in his or her interactions with 'normal' people…

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it helps that the Doctor is also a time-traveller from another planet…

Yes, and with him, Jack doesn't have to be careful about revealing too much about future history.

It's interesting, working out the best way of dealing in fic with a character whose experience of time (or space) is somewhat beyond the norm

Yes. I find it fascinating. I think my first experience of it was when I was trying to write about Methos. Dealing with the point of view of someone born in the bronze age. And now I'm trying to write about someone from the 51st century. It's so nicely mind-expanding.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yes. I find it fascinating. I think my first experience of it was when I was trying to write about Methos. Dealing with the point of view of someone born in the bronze age. And now I'm trying to write about someone from the 51st century. It's so nicely mind-expanding.

Yes. It's not like writing comedy pieces with ghosts, & c., as I have in the past.

I'm just getting to grips with this, with a character in my current story. He's been around for several hundred years (linear time, on-going), but is still strongly affected, psychologically and emotionally, by experiences in his original lifespan.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's not like writing comedy pieces with ghosts, & c., as I have in the past.

Well, that's fun too, and sometimes it's a matter of balancing the deep stuff and the light stuff in such a way that's convincing but not too heavy or expository.


He's been around for several hundred years ... psychologically and emotionally, by experiences in his original lifespan.

That makes sense, like the theory that events we encounter when young make a stronger impression than those of middle age. I think there are limits to this - I certainly know people whose personalities were changed by midlife experiences - but there's a basic truth to it.

Put into Torchwood terms, wherever Jack goes, he'll still be a 51st cnetury sort of guy - even though events of the 1940s and on the Game Station clearly overturned his life and thinking.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Exactly! And if your original lifetime f***ed you over this badly…

For example, with Jack, it's clear that experience of going to war, and his friend's death, still affects him at a very deep level.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

with Jack, it's clear that experience of going to war, and his friend's death, still affects him at a very deep level.

Especially since he cares for others so very much. The pain stays with him.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup. And to be forced to watch your comrade being tortured is itself torture. I'm reminded of a quote from the Austrian-born philosopher and Holocaust survivor, Jean Améry (né Hans Maier) who committed suicide in 1978:
"Anyone who has been tortured remains tortured… anyone who has suffered torture never again will be able to be at ease in the world." (At the Mind's Limits)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Good quote.