Ah. I know my definite answer to the first one at least - Yes, I do. Each time somebody who cares for me has tried to hide the truth from me, with the BESTEST intentions, it's always come up, and at the worst possible moment, causing maximum damage / hurt. My experience with concealing the truth has been bad. So I want the truth, even - and especially - if it happens to hurt me. Because living a lie just doesn't work well for me.
Now the second one can give me a headache... But only partly. Yes, I want to be free to be responsible for my own choices. I want to be free to use my full capacity. Free of what? Now that one doesn't come to me on its own. I usually centre on the goal - free to do or be what? I think that way I focus on the solution, instead of the problem. Because if I achieve freedom from one thing/person, I might just become subject to another. But if I have a goal I want to reach before me, I will be looking for a way to do it.
Argh. I think I got tired again (slept about enough last night, but still that means a bit of catching up to do. Getting wordy...)
Yes, I agree with your first paragraph. Regardless of the motives of those who hide the truth (and those motives may or may not be good), a bad truth is better than a good lie. There is nothing more dangerous than believing lies, or even errors.
I'd say the only absolute freedom is the freedom to make choices.
Don't you want the truth? Don't all philosophers and scholars want truth?
I think 'freedom' in this context means being free of illusion and assumption. Perhaps being free from the demands of others that you believe what they believe. Being free to question anything you want to question (including the quote itself.)
oh I resent having to want The Truth just because I am a philosoper ;-)
I remember something my teacher of philosophy in highschool (a rather peculiar kind of man) once said: "Be glad you don't know "The Truth" for if you did it would rob you of choices and the ability to determine for yourself. Imagine a voice from the heavens came and said "the purpose in life is to grow the largest possible tomatos!" You would be bound to keep growing tomatos for the rest of your life, and not even the tastiest or the reddest or the one with the nicest smell, not the largest. How frustrating."
Ok. A silly analogy but it has influenced my thinking. Oh I am also influenced by a hefty dose of post-modern thinking of all sorts, about how truth is a construction or text or something to be deconstructed or all or none of the above and that at the same time. So well no, I am not certain. And I think the state of being not certain is rather interesting and that makes it worthwhile in itself. At the same time, it is also frustrating and I won't just not go that far of declaring that makes it worthwhile.
As for freedom, I make my truths, I feel like a spider in my web. The web is both my world, my construction but also my limitation. If I was absolute free I would be loose of the world. (ok, maybe that is very absolute and a freedom gradually less extreme might be worth striving for, you see I have no problem appropiating the freedom to ask questions and making statements).
oh I resent having to want The Truth just because I am a philosoper ;-)
LOL! I love you for comments like that - blast all my assumptions, why don't you! I love the idea of a philosopher/scholar who isn't looking for the truth. And I suppose even when we're trying for truth, we're all just aiming in the general direction with blindfolds and handcuffs on a moving platform in a windstorm....
And goodness knows, I wouldn't want to cut off anyone's options in any direction. Though I don't quite see the point of looking for untruths.
Aren't we all in a state of being uncertain? Isn't that a great truth in itself?
If you create all your own truths, isn't that just a form of solipsism? Aren't you losing the basis on which to make judgements - ways of distinguishing between your own truth and your own error?
I have no problem appropiating the freedom to ask questions and making statements
Yes, me too. There's a lot of that kind of freedom on LJ, which is one of the reasons it's fun.
And goodness knows, I wouldn't want to cut off anyone's options in any direction. Though I don't quite see the point of looking for untruths.
Casting doubt on the desirability of aiming for The Truth is not quite the same aa urging people on to seek out untruths. Actually, if there is no such thing as The Truth there is also no such thing as The Untruth.
I think of truth more as a process than a fixed point. Something we make and unmake together. There are things/elements/processes that seem to be fixed bounderies (what we perceive as laws of nature, human nature, history) but even these move and morph at times. Truth is in our perceptions, in the stories we tell and in our interactions.
There are opnions I hold as very very important (equality of men and women, the wickedness of racism, the theory of evolution, the wrongness of war) but I still waver of calling them the truth. (I will stand for them though).
Thinking about this. Is 'truth' the same as The Truth? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. By the same token, is The Untruth the same as error, or lies, or untruth? I have the impression you're talking about something somewhat different than what I was talking about.
I think I see truth as a process too, but I see it as an important process and a goal. Truth changes, of course. All the time.
I think I can say that philosophy is for me 'aiming for understanding'. Thinking about the difference between the truth, The Truth, truth, a true statement, a falsifiable statement, a conviction, an epiphany is a possible such attempt. (I think there are differences abound, but in many caseshow to judge and classify it context dependent)
For me the advantage of phrasing the project of philosophy that way is precisely that you can practice it without the assumption there is a truth of some kind, a goal to strive for. Non-foundationalist philosophy if you want the name of the brand ;-) Often people tried the Big Truths as bedrock for their philosophy, their Deity, Rationality, the law of historical materialism, the impartial hand of the free market. So, saying at the start that you are not aiming for something similar can hopefully proceed to smaller local truths, to understanding of what is closer by.
I am sorry if I am not clear enough, it is sometimes hard to know how language works across these increasinly smaller comment boxes. It is more stuff of essays and discussions.
I think I can say that philosophy is for me 'aiming for understanding'.
Understanding what?
Thinking about the difference between the truth, The Truth, truth, a true statement, a falsifiable statement, a conviction, an epiphany is a possible such attempt.
Whenever I get into these discussions - and I do often, because I enjoy them and like to foster them - I start getting confused about the ideas being discussed and the definitions of words being discussed, and that often gets in the way of my understanding.
"Non-foundationalist philosophy" - I must look that up.
Yes, of course, part of the problem is that neither can or even want to write and essay on the subject here, and I - obviously - would be far from qualified to do so. Much of my attitude was shaped by the knowledge I have got from the one philosophy courses I did take as an undergraduate - "the philosophy of history" - and the theories of communication courses - and what I have picked up from reading and conversation through the years.
In fact, I tend to think of things like 'truth' in terms of history as a discipline and in terms of historical truth, which is not so much an abstract ideal as a specific tool within the discipline - subject to subjective/intellectual scrutiny and used with various conventions of evidence and linguistic analysis, rather like the study of law. The very idea that it could be an absolute is inconceivable.
I don't want to be lied to. But there are also people who use "the truth" as an excuse for unloading the most appalling nastiness on others. I see no reason to know their bald opinion of my clothes, haircut, facial features or whatever -- especially when not even requested by me!
Sometimes it's necessary to explain to someone that they've done something that's upset you -- but there's no reason not to be tactful.
(And BTW I am really sorry tea got spilled on your carpet again last night -- I will do my best to find a more secure spot for my cup from now on.)
there are also people who use "the truth" as an excuse for unloading the most appalling nastiness on others.
I agree - and in cases like this, I'd prefer a polite lie to a rude truth, but in times like that the real rule that should come into play is 'silence is golden'. This tricky part is when someone says "Do you like my new dress?" and you really don't, but you don't want to say so - so it's time to search for a really truthful and tactful answer. (Like: "You look lovely in it.")
BTW I am really sorry tea got spilled on your carpet again last night
It's okay! There've been stains in that spot before, so who can tell the old stains from the new? Besides, it's in shadow, and it might be incentive (at some point) to clean the carpet again. I try to think of these things as the normal wear and tear of life: the alternative is never doing anything, never having friends over, never drinking tea, and worrying too much. So really, when you think of it, a carpet is a small price to pay for friends and fun, and good company while watching Doctor Who and Sharpe.
Perhaps if I get a few more TV trays there will be better places for us to put our cups.
Isn't it, though! I am somewhat embarrassed by its irresistible adorableness, because I am really, really not a kitten sort of person, least of all a kitten with a pink bow, but... well, the double-dose of cute kitten and cuter Doctor just got the better of me. I surrender. I love it.
Wouldn't it be nice to see the Doctor with a budgie perched on his shoulder?
I'll do that. The little guy was sort of sleepy this morning, but cheered up and started to sing while I was doing my exercises while playing Torchwood music vids.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 01:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 02:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 01:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 01:31 pm (UTC)Now the second one can give me a headache... But only partly. Yes, I want to be free to be responsible for my own choices. I want to be free to use my full capacity. Free of what? Now that one doesn't come to me on its own. I usually centre on the goal - free to do or be what? I think that way I focus on the solution, instead of the problem. Because if I achieve freedom from one thing/person, I might just become subject to another. But if I have a goal I want to reach before me, I will be looking for a way to do it.
Argh. I think I got tired again (slept about enough last night, but still that means a bit of catching up to do. Getting wordy...)
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 02:40 pm (UTC)I'd say the only absolute freedom is the freedom to make choices.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 03:35 pm (UTC)And when people throw the word "freedom" around, I always want to ask:
From what?
For what?
For whom?
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:04 pm (UTC)In other words, freedom from whoever or whatever would prevent me from doing that.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 02:38 pm (UTC)I think 'freedom' in this context means being free of illusion and assumption. Perhaps being free from the demands of others that you believe what they believe. Being free to question anything you want to question (including the quote itself.)
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 03:22 pm (UTC)I remember something my teacher of philosophy in highschool (a rather peculiar kind of man) once said: "Be glad you don't know "The Truth" for if you did it would rob you of choices and the ability to determine for yourself. Imagine a voice from the heavens came and said "the purpose in life is to grow the largest possible tomatos!" You would be bound to keep growing tomatos for the rest of your life, and not even the tastiest or the reddest or the one with the nicest smell, not the largest. How frustrating."
Ok. A silly analogy but it has influenced my thinking. Oh I am also influenced by a hefty dose of post-modern thinking of all sorts, about how truth is a construction or text or something to be deconstructed or all or none of the above and that at the same time. So well no, I am not certain. And I think the state of being not certain is rather interesting and that makes it worthwhile in itself. At the same time, it is also frustrating and I won't just not go that far of declaring that makes it worthwhile.
As for freedom, I make my truths, I feel like a spider in my web. The web is both my world, my construction but also my limitation. If I was absolute free I would be loose of the world. (ok, maybe that is very absolute and a freedom gradually less extreme might be worth striving for, you see I have no problem appropiating the freedom to ask questions and making statements).
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 03:59 pm (UTC)LOL! I love you for comments like that - blast all my assumptions, why don't you! I love the idea of a philosopher/scholar who isn't looking for the truth. And I suppose even when we're trying for truth, we're all just aiming in the general direction with blindfolds and handcuffs on a moving platform in a windstorm....
And goodness knows, I wouldn't want to cut off anyone's options in any direction. Though I don't quite see the point of looking for untruths.
Aren't we all in a state of being uncertain? Isn't that a great truth in itself?
If you create all your own truths, isn't that just a form of solipsism? Aren't you losing the basis on which to make judgements - ways of distinguishing between your own truth and your own error?
I have no problem appropiating the freedom to ask questions and making statements
Yes, me too. There's a lot of that kind of freedom on LJ, which is one of the reasons it's fun.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:55 pm (UTC)Casting doubt on the desirability of aiming for The Truth is not quite the same aa urging people on to seek out untruths. Actually, if there is no such thing as The Truth there is also no such thing as The Untruth.
I think of truth more as a process than a fixed point. Something we make and unmake together. There are things/elements/processes that seem to be fixed bounderies (what we perceive as laws of nature, human nature, history) but even these move and morph at times. Truth is in our perceptions, in the stories we tell and in our interactions.
There are opnions I hold as very very important (equality of men and women, the wickedness of racism, the theory of evolution, the wrongness of war) but I still waver of calling them the truth. (I will stand for them though).
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 05:44 pm (UTC)I think I see truth as a process too, but I see it as an important process and a goal. Truth changes, of course. All the time.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 06:53 pm (UTC)For me the advantage of phrasing the project of philosophy that way is precisely that you can practice it without the assumption there is a truth of some kind, a goal to strive for. Non-foundationalist philosophy if you want the name of the brand ;-) Often people tried the Big Truths as bedrock for their philosophy, their Deity, Rationality, the law of historical materialism, the impartial hand of the free market. So, saying at the start that you are not aiming for something similar can hopefully proceed to smaller local truths, to understanding of what is closer by.
I am sorry if I am not clear enough, it is sometimes hard to know how language works across these increasinly smaller comment boxes. It is more stuff of essays and discussions.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 07:24 pm (UTC)Understanding what?
Thinking about the difference between the truth, The Truth, truth, a true statement, a falsifiable statement, a conviction, an epiphany is a possible such attempt.
Whenever I get into these discussions - and I do often, because I enjoy them and like to foster them - I start getting confused about the ideas being discussed and the definitions of words being discussed, and that often gets in the way of my understanding.
"Non-foundationalist philosophy" - I must look that up.
Yes, of course, part of the problem is that neither can or even want to write and essay on the subject here, and I - obviously - would be far from qualified to do so. Much of my attitude was shaped by the knowledge I have got from the one philosophy courses I did take as an undergraduate - "the philosophy of history" - and the theories of communication courses - and what I have picked up from reading and conversation through the years.
In fact, I tend to think of things like 'truth' in terms of history as a discipline and in terms of historical truth, which is not so much an abstract ideal as a specific tool within the discipline - subject to subjective/intellectual scrutiny and used with various conventions of evidence and linguistic analysis, rather like the study of law. The very idea that it could be an absolute is inconceivable.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 03:18 am (UTC)Sometimes it's necessary to explain to someone that they've done something that's upset you -- but there's no reason not to be tactful.
(And BTW I am really sorry tea got spilled on your carpet again last night -- I will do my best to find a more secure spot for my cup from now on.)
no subject
Date: 2007-04-20 11:37 am (UTC)I agree - and in cases like this, I'd prefer a polite lie to a rude truth, but in times like that the real rule that should come into play is 'silence is golden'. This tricky part is when someone says "Do you like my new dress?" and you really don't, but you don't want to say so - so it's time to search for a really truthful and tactful answer. (Like: "You look lovely in it.")
BTW I am really sorry tea got spilled on your carpet again last night
It's okay! There've been stains in that spot before, so who can tell the old stains from the new? Besides, it's in shadow, and it might be incentive (at some point) to clean the carpet again. I try to think of these things as the normal wear and tear of life: the alternative is never doing anything, never having friends over, never drinking tea, and worrying too much. So really, when you think of it, a carpet is a small price to pay for friends and fun, and good company while watching Doctor Who and Sharpe.
Perhaps if I get a few more TV trays there will be better places for us to put our cups.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 02:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 02:42 pm (UTC)Wouldn't it be nice to see the Doctor with a budgie perched on his shoulder?
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 03:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:00 pm (UTC)I'm all for keeping budgies and cats far, far apart. Logan agrees with me.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:07 pm (UTC)Please pass on cheeps to him from me when you get home.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 03:34 pm (UTC)Nice icon, too.
no subject
Date: 2007-04-18 04:01 pm (UTC)So does the kitten.
Both so very photogenic.