Torchwood: Reflections on Jack and the Doctor and the future...

[fajrdrako]

There are thoughts about Captain Jack I've been incubating for a while without ever having a chance to express them. So, I'm rushing to put down a few thoughts before things get too busy today....

1. Jack and the Doctor
Does Jack have abandonment issues, with regard to the Doctor? Yes, of course he does. Under the circumstances, who wouldn't? But....

There has been a long-held assumption in fandom that Jack was, or has been, or is, angry with the Doctor for abandoning him. Various factors, including comments by John Barrowman, have reinforced this, and I think it has been taken for granted among fans. When they meet again, will Jack hit the Doctor, or kiss him?

I see no evidence of this underlying anger in the canon. As he sees the TARDIS leave without him in "Parting of the Ways", Jack is devastated rather than angry. Distressed. Bewildered. His attitude in Torchwood would back this up - he's looking for "the right kind of doctor" to tell him what happened, and it's "the right kind of doctor" that might have been the subject of his Bilis-inspired visions, if he had any.

Anyway, it seems to me that whatever reactions of anger Jack may have had, were ephemeral and his significant reaction has been consistent faith: "Never doubted him, never will."

And this is underscored with his clear expression on hearing the TARDIS in the Hub: incredulity, hope, and happiness. No ambiguity there. The Doctor has come for him at last, and he's happy about it.

In a tangential topic, but also related to Jack and the Doctor, boji (and I hope I'm citing the right fan here!) was commenting on the fan video-footage that has been around, showing scenes from the filming of what appears to be the finals Jack scenes in Doctor Who series three.

Now, personally, I can't handle spoilers. I looked at the photos. I downloaded the footage. And while downloading I played it, and covered my eyes, because I couldn't stand seeing spoilers of such amazing scenes, and then peeked because I couldn't stand not seeing it. And I was left both sorry and not-sorry that I peeked. But my basic reaction... besides not wanting to know ahead of time... was squee.

So I was surprised to see that boji thought the Doctor in this sequence seemed aloof. I had exactly the opposite reaction. Of course I only saw it in between-the-fingers snippets, but - I saw what I saw. Aloof? Not at all. Rather the contrary.

But of course... we won't know till we know.

2. Jack and his Immortality Issues
puritybrown was talking a few weeks ago about Jack's Immortality, and whether that will be resolved. Whether, in fact, the Doctor would or could remove Jack's Immortality and make him mortal again.

Personally I think it's a case where what's done can't be undone, and the Doctor can't do that, and couldn't do that even if he sweet-talked the Time Vortex or the TARDIS into trying. And Rose is gone, even assuming she could undo what she did in the first place. Which is not to say that things couldn't change....

But I don't see it as a bilateral choice. Jack is clearly unhappy to be immortal, and often wants to die - but I'm not sure if, given the choice, he would actually choose death. He has a strong sense of honour and purpose in the 21st century: he really does think (I believe) that he can save the world, and that in itself might be enough to keep him in it. I think (but can't yet prove) that the situation at the end of "End of Days" leaves us with a happier, stronger Jack who has come to terms with a lot of things. So he can, and I think will, come to terms with his own immortality.

And this is something the Doctor could help him with, if only just by example.

3. Jack: Depressed, or flirtatious?
puritybrown was relating this to Jack's immortality, i.e., he was unhappy because he was immortal. I think he is unhappy for other reasons: he lost his sense of place in space and time, he's looking for purpose, he's faced hardship, betrayal, and abandonment, he's seen too many people he love die, at least one of them by torture - he's a caring person, and this weighs heavily on him. He doesn't wear responsibility easily or well, but he takes it seriously.

But I don't see his joie de vivre as lost or broken, just dampened.

4. Jack and his Timeline.
How long has Jack been at Torchwood? Or in the 20th century? I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer to this, but I still believe he popped back and forth in time on numerous occasions and it is impossible to say - even more so than with the Doctor - how the sightings of Jack at different times follow chronologically. With the Doctor, in fact, we can judge some of the chronology by checking which regeneration we're dealing with. Can't do that with Jack, unless you're looking at which Doctor he's with.

I think we will get an answer to the question of how he got off the Game Station. I hope it's a clever one.

5. Jack and the Torchwood Team - I see Jack's relationship with his people at Torchwood as being a central theme of series one. How they perceive him, how he perceives them, what issues they have to deal with, and how they do it. In the end of "End of Days" I see this as resolved in love and forgiveness both ways round. And coffee. Definitely coffee. Not to mention those hugs and kisses, or forgiveness and tears in the case of Owen.

So have they really gelled as a team now? I think so, I hope so.

More pertinently: what individual issues will be important in series two? Right after that reconciliation scene, Jack left them. We don't know for how long, but long enough for them to issue missing persons posters. What changes will that make in their attitudes?

As I see it, the more important issues are the personal ones. Each character has a specific personal relationship with Jack now. Gwen's attitude to Jack is laced with unresolved sexual tension; where does that leave her with Rhys, and their relationship so newly reaffirmed? She told Rhys she'd be right back home, and then spent several days in the morgue with Jack.

Ianto's relationship with Jack is both enhanced and complicated with sex and love - no less so since "End of Days" encompassed quarrel and reconciliation between them. Jack's departure is bound to affect Ianto. I'm sure Ianto loves Jack, and just as sure that he has no idea where he stands with him.

Owen: well, there's a lot of baggage there, and for all I think we'll have a sweeter and gentler Owen, there only so far a leopard can change his spots.

Toshiko's relationship with Jack seems the least complicated: respect and friendship. I hope something interesting happens with her. I want action!Tosh back, as in "Countrycide".

We know Toshiko met the Doctor. It seems likely that Ianto at least saw him when he was at Canary Wharf. Does this have anything to do with their ending up at Torchwood Cardiff with Jack?

Comments

Re: Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack is for timeless songs, nameless songs with their first sentence as their name. Like jazz.

Jack is for dance. Wordless music, sensuous motion.

I had once tried to write a Doctor Who/De-lovely drabble, which is terrible.

But a fascinating notion! My heart bled for Jack in that movie, and I resented Porter's wife for separating Jack and Porter. I perhaps overreacted, but it made the movie seem even more depressing that it already was.

It's interesting that 'Night and Day' talks about the time, too('the tick tick tock of the stately clock'). And it's mainly a song about obsession.

So true. I hadn't thought about the thematic connection.

Jack is already immortal...in a more literal way. And made by love, too.

A sort of crossroads of theme. And the price of his immortality was losing his lover,or lovers. Or so it seems.

I believe 'no' is the answer, though Jack would never say it aloud

Most of the really important things, Jack will not say aloud - his name, his identity, whether he has loved. I think there's a lot here he doesn't want to explain. Doesn't want to have to explain. And I think he takes his share of the responsibility: having Tosh leave the notes, which went wrong; leaving the rift machine in the Hub in the first place; leaving the blueprints in the safe. Even just trusting their judgement when maybe he shouldn't have. He knows he doesn't always make the right decisions either, and Owen's decision was made for the sake of love. (I'd like to think it wasn't just love for Diane, but love of Jack as well. In his own way.)

If he says 'no' to Owen/Gwen, he'll feel a little too guilty about it.

And neither 'yes' or 'no' would be entirely honest, I think. He must have mixed feelings. Put in the very roughest terms, 1941 brought him closer to real!Jack, the present brings him closer to the Doctor, so there's emotional pull either way.

has there been anything like 'the last Dalek'?

Not yet - there's always another one! or another billion.

when a whole race has emerged again, he can't do the deed for the second time.

He gets a second chance, a chance to do it differently. I think that does a lot in terms of healing his damaged psyche. And then total disaster doesn't happen - he doesn't die (at least, he isn't killed by the Daleks) and by Rose's intervention, the humans survive and the Daleks are destroyed. he gets his happy ending by surrendering to something else.

aybe it's Wendy/Peter Pan issues now, thanks to the Doctor

I've heard that said before and I don't quite get it. Could you explain? I don't see the Doctor as being like Peter Pan, and the more I look at it, the less I see it. I assume you don't mean he's like Wendy?

Re: Part 1

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"I've heard that said before and I don't quite get it. Could you explain? I don't see the Doctor as being like Peter Pan, and the more I look at it, the less I see it. I assume you don't mean he's like Wendy?"

Yeah, I've seen that for more than a couple of times, too. I think it comes from 'School Reunion'. Older Sarah Jane, who's replaced by young Rose now, humans wither and die, etc...It's about the 10th Doctor, I think. Rose and Nine never reminds me of that peculiar story before.

"he gets his happy ending by surrendering to something else."

Yes, it's a happy ending for him, no doubt. Pity that after regeneration it's genocide guilt all over again...

"And I think he takes his share of the responsibility: having Tosh leave the notes, which went wrong; leaving the rift machine in the Hub in the first place; leaving the blueprints in the safe. Even just trusting their judgement when maybe he shouldn't have. He knows he doesn't always make the right decisions either, and Owen's decision was made for the sake of love. (I'd like to think it wasn't just love for Diane, but love of Jack as well. In his own way.)"

Yes, he's not born to be someone's boss and he knows it. He can only try his best and one can't always be at his best.
He wanted to keep emotional distance from them but didn't really succeed, because when he loves he can't help but give his whole out. And they all love him, too, in their own dyfunctional ways, even Owen. I'd like to think it's not only for Diane, too. Because Owen himself says it. Though he's being more than a little self-glorifying and self-deceiving at the moment, but the motif is felt strong enough for him to declare it proudly. He really believes what he says in that scene.

"My heart bled for Jack in that movie, and I resented Porter's wife for separating Jack and Porter. I perhaps overreacted, but it made the movie seem even more depressing that it already was."

I have to confess I didn't finish watching De-lovely--well, it's not my fault. I borrowed the DVD from a friend and my computer wasn't reading the disc very well. It broke off right after Porter asks if Jack wants some cigarettes, on that carriage. Thank god at least I've heard the whole song.
What happened next? I should try downloading the second half...
I remember Linda gets very upset even before Porter's affair with Jack begins that night. I thought she was just being emotional. Does she really hate him that much? Isn't the marriage supposed to be a platonic one? I remember hearing something about her being pregnant in the movie, but I was watching it sans subtitles(I'm not very proud of my English hearing), so it's all a blur in my memory now.
And...are Porter and Jack that serious about each other? I thought Jack was just showing his gratitude...in his own naughty way. And Porter couldn't bring himself to skip a pretty face. I thought it was just a one night stand from the very beginning. Misunderstood, then. I'll never try watching films without English subtitles again...

Re: Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think it comes from 'School Reunion'. Older Sarah Jane, who's replaced by young Rose now, humans wither and die, etc...

I find that unconvincing - and a misunderstanding of the "Peter Pan" story, where the point is not that Peter Pan rejects people and leaves them behind as they age, but that, by aging, they leave him behind... the eternal boy. The point isn't that he doesn't die, its that he doesn't age or mature. The Doctor is a different archetype entirely, the Immortal - he changes, he learns constantly, he has non-human knowledge and wisdom, but he remains alone because everyone else dies.

In fact, the point of "School Reunion" is that the Doctor does accept the older Sarah Jane back and she chooses to leave, while Rose chooses to stay - the Doctor would have been happy to have kept both of them on the TARDIS forever, or as long as they wanted to stay.

He wanted to keep emotional distance from them but didn't really succeed, because when he loves he can't help but give his whole out.

I think maybe he decided that being emotionally more open and involved with them was better for him and better for the them, even if it's more difficult, and not standard for organizations like Torchwood. But Jack isn't standard corporate material, and he knows it. Capacity to love is both his weakness (an Achilles' heel) and his strength.

they all love him, too, in their own dyfunctional ways, even Owen. I'd like to think it's not only for Diane, too. Because Owen himself says it.

I agree absolutely. I think Owen really wants Jack's attention and approval - and doesn't mind a certain degree of misbehaviour to get Jack's attention, one way or another. I've always wondered why Jack doesn't come down harder on Owen earlier, when he breaks so many rules - but this might explain it.

It broke off right after Porter asks if Jack wants some cigarettes, on that carriage. Thank god at least I've heard the whole song.
What happened next? I should try downloading the second half...

Porter was supposed to be at this important social function with his wife, meeting important people, but instead he stayed out with Jack and came home the next morning. His wife was furiously angry. She wants to move to Hollywood, Porter wants to stay in New York. He says sadly to her (in relation to Jack), "I didn't realize my happiness get in the way of yours." My interpretation was that his wife didn't mind him having boyfriends as long as they were really casual affairs just for sex, but once he actually cared for someone (like Jack) she felt threatened and wanted to break them up. And that going to Hollywood was a way to ensure Porter and Jack couldn't be together. I might have misinterpreted, or misremembered, but I lost sympathy for his wife there - as usual, I was identifying too much with Jack, and no one was worrying about his happiness.

Isn't the marriage supposed to be a platonic one? I remember hearing something about her being pregnant in the movie, but I was watching it sans subtitles(I'm not very proud of my English hearing), so it's all a blur in my memory now.

Yes, the point was that it was platonic marriage. So I thought she was ultimately saying "You can have sex with anyone you like but you can only love me," which strikes me as colossally unfair. She does get pregnant - they decide they want a baby, the sex is rather sweet but basically for a practical purpose - and then she has a miscarriage. (Very sad.)

And...are Porter and Jack that serious about each other? I thought Jack was just showing his gratitude...in his own naughty way.

Possibly. I interpreted it as more, or at least potentially more, because of the wife's reaction, and because of his line about happiness, which I thought indicated Jack really meant something to him. I don't think Jack's feelings, or Porter's, were entirely made clear. I don't think you misunderstood, necessarily, or that I did - it's just that there are different ways to interpret what was happening and the movie leaves it ambiguous.

Re: Part 1

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"The Doctor is a different archetype entirely, the Immortal - he changes, he learns constantly, he has non-human knowledge and wisdom, but he remains alone because everyone else dies."

Yes, I think you're right about the Doctor being another archetype. I should rewatch 'School Reunion'. Some episodes of the second series I even watched before the first series, and my memory has failed me.
And yes, one should be careful with metaphors.

"I interpreted it as more, or at least potentially more, because of the wife's reaction, and because of his line about happiness, which I thought indicated Jack really meant something to him. I don't think Jack's feelings, or Porter's, were entirely made clear. "

I think Porter does feel more than he shows, because of the happiness line. Because he writes that particular song with Jack in mind--as a tenor or as a lover or as both? And because he does seem to care about Jack, about Jack's career. 'Night and Day' always strikes me as a song about obsession, but not about love, though. This whole thing may begin more like an obsession than love, but the borderline between these two is never clear.
Jack's feelings are more unclear. No, no one cares about his happiness because 'he's just an actor'. (Even Porter thinks so, no matter how much an obsession Jack is for him. Porter knows the illusion will end sooner or later, and Jack'll come back to what he really is all along--just another actor.) They only expected him to play his role, in life as well. He's only a symbol in this story, a pretty face, nearly nameless, only a temptation in Porter's marriage with Linda. (No matter how many Boris there are in Russia, there're certainly more Jack in the world, and Boris is a lover, not a one night stand.)I didn't feel bad for Jack because I don't think he will care that much. He's glad he can show his gratitude and have some fun himself. And he seems to be heterosexual or at first sight. The story isn't told in his angle, so we can only see this much. But yes, it's a great pity that Porter and he parted so soon. During that song, we see so much potential between them.
And why does the character have to be called Jack? I can't help thinking he's CJH himself, sometimes...

Re: Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I should rewatch 'School Reunion'.

Me too, if only because I like it, and it's been a while now since I've seen it. I like the contrast between the cold side of the Doctor (with Mr. Finch) and his warm side (with Sarah Jane, whom he is so very glad to see).

Because he writes that particular song with Jack in mind--as a tenor or as a lover or as both? And because he does seem to care about Jack, about Jack's career. 'Night and Day' always strikes me as a song about obsession, but not about love, though.

Yes, and if the obsession had been directed towards Jack, I don't think Porter would have given him up so easily. Or perhaps by categorizing it as an obsession, it was easier for him to give it up - something he was better off without?

Jack'll come back to what he really is all along--just another actor.

Sadly, yes. I thought Jack deserved better.

hy does the character have to be called Jack? I can't help thinking he's CJH himself, sometimes...

It's fun to imagine so. John Barrowman was Jack in "Jack and the Beanstalk" as well. A shame that his "Shark Attack" character was only a Peter, not a Jack!

Re: Part 1

[coneyislandbaby]

*dies*

The fact seems to be that JB can't get away from playing characters named Peter or Jack.

In Who/TW - Jack.
De-Lovely - Jack.

In Central Park West (where I first discovered him) - Peter.
In Titans - Peter.

Don't people think he can play characters with different names?

*vastly amused*

Re: Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, when you've got a good name, why not stick with it?

Most amusing.