Torchwood: the snogging scene in "Countrycide"..

[fajrdrako]

Snogging: an interesting topic, on Torchwood. No, I don't mean the almost-snog at the tree between Gwen and Owen, I mean the conversation Gwen initiates at the campsite: "Who'd you last snog?" That's a delightful scene in terms of characterization.

Just in initiating it, Gwen reveals a lot about herself: her role at Torchwood (according to Jack) was to humanize the others, and she's doing it like a Girl Guide leader, setting up games (I'm crediting her with the basketball game in "Cyberwoman"), recreational outings (talk about going to the football game), and conversational games.

But this particular game reveals a lot about her: curiosity, a fascination with sex, a fascination with people's lives, recklessness, indiscretion, and a real desire for intimacy in friendships without much tact. This brings to mind her comments in "Day One", where she was fishing for information about their private lives, saying, "I don't want to be rude, but... well, maybe I do."

So: snogging. Tosh's answer reveals her crush on Owen, her shyness, her defensiveness about it, her good memory... I wonder, why Owen? Why would he attract a girl as shy as Tosh? Maybe because they both have phenomenal intelligence, something they don't share with a lot of the population; and it's scientifically-oriented genius at that. They're both geeks. His aggression might frighten her in a way that bypasses her shyness, turns her on.

Owen's answer is calculated to embarrass Gwen and put her at a disadvantage - which she might have anticipated, and pretty much earned. All part of his seduction technique. (Jack lures; Owen attacks.) And Gwen, who loves risk and challenge, loves this.

So is Owen telling the truth? In the time since "Cyberwoman", has he picked no one up in bars? Maybe without the pheromone spray, he doesn't bother. Maybe he's lying because his goal is to get Gwen. How long has it been between "Cyberwoman" and "Countrycide"? are there any indications?

Gwen's answer is meant to sound innocent, even respectable, since kissing the man you live with is only to be expected. But it is an answer that hides her attraction to both Owen and Jack, and perhaps her hankering for sexual excitement that reveals itself in numerous ways including her reaction to the sex alien. Owen can see this, and almost immediately hones in on it as her weakness, in the tree scene.

Jack's answer is meant to deflect, obviously. "Are we including non-human life-forms?" It's amusing and outrageous - very Jack-like. It also does the opposite of what Owen's answer was meant to do, it avoids embarrassment to Ianto, who is presumably the last person Jack kissed. It also brings to mind the two times we have seen Jack kiss aliens: Carys when possessed, and the Doctor in "The Parting of the Ways". Owen witnessed the kiss for Carys, if he wants to think about it. I think we can assumed that when he calls Jack "sick" and "disgusting", his real reaction is envy. Owen wants to be cool. Jack is cooler than cool, and casual about it. He can outclass Owen in any sexual contest without even trying, including outrageousness. Jack himself would think that wasn't the point - it isn't a competition - but that doesn't stop Owen from making it a contest. Maybe he wants to prove he can seduce Gwen before Jack does, not knowing that Jack wouldn't do so.

Ianto cuts the conversation entirely by talking about Lisa, but essentially he's lying too - or so I interpret it - his conversation being directed at Jack. He knows Jack kissed him. Does Ianto think the intent was to revive him, or take advantage of him? What does their long stare mean? I could imagine many interpretations, my current favourite being:
Ianto: Are you trying to confuse me?
Jack: No. Think for yourself.

Comments

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

Nice piece, please cross-post it. My favorite interpretation of that stare is more parental:

Jack: Cut that shit out, you know better than to make a scene.

Ianto: I don't want to know better, but I do.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Nice piece, please cross-post it.

Where, to torch_wood, you mean?

Mmm, I like your conversaton. Yes, I can see that interpretation very well. Or even just:

Jack: What did that outburst accomplish?
Ianto: Nothing at all.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

Owen has managed to capture most of the Torchwood team [probably even Myfanwy]. Although Tosh is very nice and that, I don't see her as someone who goes out looking for love - until it found her. [Apologies to whatever song I just misquoted.] Owen, I suspect, just counts her as yet another conquest, but Tosh thought there was something more because it was more than she was used to. I think that Greeks Bearing Gifts shows that Tosh hasn't had much opportunity to explore her sexuality.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think that Greeks Bearing Gifts shows that Tosh hasn't had much opportunity to explore her sexuality.

That seems right. I think, being shy and lonely, she did her best to repress sexual feelings and carry on with life. Though she was sweet with Mary (sometimes), she was very passive, even conflicted in various ways - a lot of things were happening to her at once. I don't think she learned a lot from the experience: the Tosh I see after "Greeks Bearing Gifts" isn't noticeably changed. Perhaps a little sadder and wiser, but unchanged.

She seemed somewhat surprised to be responding sexually to a woman - a definite lack of self-knowledge there, and I think she has a certain discomfort with sexuality in general, would have had the same uncertainties if Mary had been a man.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad you agree. I've posted so much today that I've regretted! ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. I like Tosh but I think she needs a little more self-knowledge. Otherwise she'll stay stuck at a certain level of development - trapped by her own loneliness.

[terrylj.livejournal.com]

My own interpretation of that long stare scene:

Jack: Are you going to be all right?
Ianto: Leave me alone. Stop caring about me.

Also crabby_lioness' interpretation. Both at once.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, I like this one too. Especially since we know that Ianto will be all right, and Jack will not stop caring about him.

[kheha.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting. Thanks!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My pleasure!

I enjoy contemplating the subject.

[mllelaurel.livejournal.com]

Great analysis and character insight! Bookmarking this.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I love thinking about this stuff, and these wonderful characters. They reward thought so richly.

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

Ianto cuts the conversation entirely by talking about Lisa, but essentially he's lying too - or so I interpret it - his conversation being directed at Jack.

I never really thought of it like that - I saw it more as Jack covered for him, essentially, by deflecting the question, so Ianto does the same, presumably because he a) doesn't know what's going on between them (in the words of Tosh earlier in that episode "Was it just a kiss or...") and b) doesn't want to answer any awkward questions about it. Also, perhaps he didn't technically kiss Jack back so doesn't count it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I saw it more as Jack covered for him, essentially, by deflecting the question, so Ianto does the same

True enough. I wonder what Ianto made of that kiss, both at the time, and at the time of the "Countrycide" conversation. I think he certainly doesn't want to answer questions about it (or maybe even to consider them) and prefers to return to the old pain they all know about, concerning Lisa.

he didn't technically kiss Jack back so doesn't count it.

He was a passive participant, rather like Jack was when Gwen kissed him in "Day One".

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

Ianto cuts the conversation entirely by talking about Lisa, but essentially he's lying too - or so I interpret it - his conversation being directed at Jack. He knows Jack kissed him.

The thing is, I don't believe Ianto was lying at all. Jack was the one who kissed him: he didn't reciprocate the gesture, didn't even consent to it. From Ianto's perspective, LISA is the person who he kissed.

Is he making a pointed reply to Jack as well as the team? Probably---without intending to, they brought up an extremely painful subject for Ianto, seemed to forget he was still grieving for his partner, Jack included.

For that reason, I tend to interpret Jack's stare as a more sympathetic one. He's been in Ianto's shoes of having loved and lost.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't believe Ianto was lying at all

Well, no, but there was a certain noticeable omission there that the viewer can't help thinking of regardless of the literal truth.

without intending to, they brought up an extremely painful subject for Ianto, seemed to forget he was still grieving for his partner, Jack included.

Well, it was only Gwen who raised the subject: she was being insensitive (and not just because of Ianto), but perhaps with a purpose. Though at this point I think they all want Ianto to be able to heal emotionally, it's in his interest not to keep raising the subject and remind them that he almost got them all killed on that occasion.

I tend to interpret Jack's stare as a more sympathetic one.

Yes, I think he feels sympathetic, as I think he did all along.

He's been in Ianto's shoes of having loved and lost.

Only too often. I think he has the same kind of loyalty for the Doctor that Ianto had for Lisa.

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

his interest not to keep raising the subject and remind them that he almost got them all killed on that occasion.

Well you're right: *Gwen* specifically was the one who raised it.But I think the others shared some of the blame because, with the possible exception of Jack, none of them tried to change the subject, or gently hint that this wasn't a good idea. They glibly joined in. I think shaggydogstail hit the nail on the head when she pointed out that they simply forgot. They forgot Ianto just lost a partner, that in all likelihood, SHE was the last person who he kissed. *They* brought it up: not him. It may have been unintentional, but it was still hurtful. All Ianto did was call them on it.

I'm sure the Torchwood team have the best of intentions with regards to Ianto, but in this situation, he had every right to be angry with them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think the others shared some of the blame because, with the possible exception of Jack, none of them tried to change the subject, or gently hint that this wasn't a good idea. They glibly joined in.

My quibble here is whether 'blame' is really the word for what happened. They are neither throwing the subject of Lisa in Ianto's face, nor avoiding it - even though he accuses them of forgetting, when I don't think any of them have forgotten, not for a moment. But they have forgiven him, and his outburst, though it shows how raw his feelings are, really doesn't raise the issue of their guilt, but his.

I think shaggydogstail hit the nail on the head when she pointed out that they simply forgot.

Possibly, but I interpret it differently. I don't think they've forgotten anything about Ianto or Lisa. Gwen's "who did you snog" game wasn't aimed at him, but at the group as a whole, or possibly, specifically, Jack. (They are all curious about Jack's love life, which is still a mystery to them at this point.)

It may have been unintentional, but it was still hurtful. All Ianto did was call them on it.

What Ianto did was blurt out his pain, blaming them. A very human reaction.

I'm sure the Torchwood team have the best of intentions with regards to Ianto

Agreed. They all felt for him from the beginning - they all understand about love. They all accepted him again afterwards, even though his mistake nearly got them all killed. They want him to recover emotionally. But avoiding talking about any issue related to love or sex or feelings wouldn't be the way to do that.

he had every right to be angry with them.

Agreed, and they with him. But they're all doing their best in an awkward situation.

It was awkward with regard to Tosh, too, though Gwen didn't know it woudl be when she started the conversation. And I think that was the kind of thing she wanted to know about.

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

They are neither throwing the subject of Lisa in Ianto's face, nor avoiding it - even though he accuses them of forgetting...Gwen's "who did you snog" game wasn't aimed at him, but at the group as a whole, or possibly, specifically, Jack.

Again, I realize that this was unintentional on Gwen's part, and that she had the best intentions when she started the game. She wants to get to know her colleagues better, she wants to befriend them. But considering that Lisa just died, it's not hard to figure out what Ianto's answer would most likely be. Either he's expected to answer, as part of the team, or he's the nonentity they take for granted.

I'm not absolving Ianto of guilt for the events in Cyberwoman: what he did was dangerous and selfish, even if it was understandable, and I agree that on the whole, the team is being generous and compassionate. That doesn't make the snogging game any less thoughtless.

Gwen had no way of knowing that the question would be awkward for Tosh, that Tosh had a crush on Owen (although dear God Tosh, WHY?!). However, she doesn't have the same excuse about Lisa, and that makes the snogging game inconsiderate with regards to Ianto.

I like this discussion, btw. I find it interesting. ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That doesn't make the snogging game any less thoughtless.

As I see it, the insensitivity on Gwen's part isn't just because Ianto's feelings are still excruciating; it's insensitive because she's treading on very private territory where the unknown factors could be really explosive. She's lucky the results weren't even worse than they were.

although dear God Tosh, WHY?!

You'd think she'd know better. Really. Can't help feeling sorry for Tosh - with self-absorbed Owen as her first choice and heart-eater Mary as her second choice of lover. Tosh is a woman who loves unwisely but too well!

I find this conversation interesting too, for what it reveals about each of them, and their priorities, and their defenses.

[adn-heming.livejournal.com]

As I see it, the insensitivity on Gwen's part isn't just because Ianto's feelings are still excruciating; it's insensitive because she's treading on very private territory where the unknown factors could be really explosive.

Ah, fair point. I just think that the gravitas of her insensitivity with regards to Ianto is far graver. Particularly because he HAS just lost a partner, in circumstances that are painful for himself and the team and that Gwen herself was an active part of these events.

Tosh is a woman who loves unwisely but too well!
And she could do so much better! She's brilliant, attractive, and perfectly lovely. There are other fish, Tosh!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

she could do so much better!

Yes, and I hope she does. Maybe in series two?

[sacreddesire.livejournal.com]

See that's one of the reasons I hate Ianto. He seems to ruin every good thing that goes on. I don't see it as him lying, because I see no "relationship" or whatever between him and Jack.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, though I don't see him as being destructive... I see him, as so many of them are, as a good, troubled person trying to make sense of life. I think he loves Jack, and I can certainly relate to that! Of the many relationships surrounding Jack, the one with Ianto is not my favourite, but I find it fascinating in its ramifications.

And become Jack loves them all, I can't resist loving them all myself. Possibly it is because I identify with him; possibly it is because I admire his talent for caring, compassion and forgiveness.

[sacreddesire.livejournal.com]

I liked Ianto until the whole Lisa thing happened. He betrayed them and I'm not ok with things like that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, Ianto betrayed them, but Jack forgave him and I can too. He has since proved his loyalty and courage. I'm a lot more uncomfortable with his betrayal of jack in "End of Days", but I think I've sorted that out in my head now.