A few Torchwood observations...

[fajrdrako]

I watched "Cyberwoman", "Greeks Bearing Gifts" and "They Keep Killing Suzie" tonight with walkingowl and Donna.

A few observations:

(1) Gayle pointed out that the item I have been so casually referring to as "Ianto's stopwatch" was tossed to him by Jack at the beginning of the glove scene, which explains why Ianto says, "I still have the stopwatch" - meaning, "I still have your stopwatch." So it is... it was Jack's stopwatch, and a very Jack-like thing for him to own. Somehow this just adds to the sexiness of it, and I would like to think Ianto has kept the stopwatch ever since. Though they could, I suppose, pass it back and forth.

(2) I noticed that Mary quotes Coleridge and that reminded me that Sarah Jane's alien friend, apparently from the same planet or race, was a poet. So it seems that it's an alien culture that values poetry. I wonder whether we'll see them again.

(3) Though Suzie seems to have a love/hate attitude towards Gwen, it's interesting that she seems to take it for granted that Jack loves Gwen. Yet she never asks Gwen if she's sleeping with Jack, which (to my mind) implies that she knows Gwen wasn't, and that she never had sex with Jack herself. I see the love triangle of Jack/Gwen/Suzie as being the psychologically significant one, not Owen/Gwen/Suzie.

(4) At first I saw it as a contradiction, but I love it more each time I see the episodes: that in "Cyberwoman", Lisa talks to Owen about their shared camping experiences, while in "Countricide" Ianto says he never liked camping. I like all the possible implications of this. After all, a dog peed on their tent.

(5) Interesting that Jack let Toshiko destroy the pendant. We discussed that a little after the episode, and I think it bolsters my theory that Torchwood's mandate (as described in the charter) is nothing like Jack's personal agenda, and he is using Torchwood for his own purposes.

(6) I have noticed the many references to something moving/lurking/coming in the dark, which originally didn't make much of an impression at all. I wrote it off as general spooky atmosphere.

(7) The more I watch, the more the characters seem well-drawn, with carefully set-up motivations and subtle revelations of purpose and character. Interactions that seemed mysterious first time through seem both clear and significant now. The plots don't become more clear - I think some of them really could have used better editing - but the characterization does.

(8) I continue to find the Jack/Gwen relationship extremely interesting. Gwen doesn't annoy me at all this time through, perhaps because I know what to expect from her.

(9) Apparently the line "Guess you aren't from around these parts" is from Oklahoma!

(10) I love the way in "Cyberwoman" Jack is so clearly a soldier fighting a war, while his team is made up of civilians dealing with an emergency. Different attitudes. I really love Jack in his episode: his anger and love towards Ianto (including the kiss), his determination, his protectiveness... his use of the pterodactyl as a weapon. His willingness to die (several times) to save the others. His unwillingness to say whether he's ever loved anyone that much, but willingness to talk to Gwen about his feelings on life and death.

Comments

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

God help me, I want to reply to all of this and I have neither the time or brainpower to do so.

I'll leave it with saying that the more I watch of Torchwood, the less Gwen bothers me. I still don't *like* her, and I don't think I'm going to, but the more sense she makes to me and the less she irritates the hell out of me.

Oh, and I think Jack in my mind *IS* a solider. Not just in Cyberwoman, but in general. Even in Boomtown, where he's his least military, he's still pulling together plans of action (and falling into line for the Doctor)

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

not in our minds, Jack just is a soldier. Once a soldier always a soldier (given the right circumstances to trigger it) (and something similar goes for firemen and doctors) - a different way to respond to emergencies of a certain kind. At least, that Is my understanding (being a civillian to the core). Remember Jack of Torchwood talking with Jack of WW2 about his early memory of war and betrayal. It is apperently something that colors his whole life.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

There is *definitely* tons and tons of evidence about Jack's military nature - I *like* that about him, but it's something I (seem) to see so often in fandom and fanfic that I begin to wonder if I'm hallucinating it, now and then. Totally agreed that it's something that colors everything about him. Everything. I don't think it can not. He sees the world through a set of eyes as different for being a solider as he does from being from the 51st century and being unable to stay dead. It's. Actually one of the more relatable things about him, for me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it's something I (seem) to see so often in fandom and fanfic that I begin to wonder if I'm hallucinating it, now and then.

Not in this case, I think.

It's one of Jack's many intriguing paradoxes. His outer persona is so often casual, sexy, funny, self-involved - and that is all true to his character - but when we get glimpses of the inner Jack, there's this soldier inside, who values duty over love (which otherwise is his highest value) and will make any sacrifice.

He sees the world through a set of eyes as different for being a solider as he does from being from the 51st century

I agree absolutely - and I love it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Once a soldier always a soldier

I believe the war he is fighting is ongoing, though not visible to us. Are you familiar with the Marvel comics character Cable? He was a favourite of mine for a long time - he was fighting an ongoing war from the future a thousand years from now, when the world was ruled by an immortal despot named Apocalypse. Cable came to the 20th century to fight Apocalypse at the beginning of his rise to power, hoping to nip it in the bud, recruiting a bunch of scruffy mutant teenagers who used to be X-Men. It was a great story.

Anyway, this reminds me of Jack now. A soldier from the future recruits a bunch of clueless-but-teachable natives and he plans his secret strategies from his secret lair, all for a war yet to be started.

In other words, I agree with you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I want to reply to all of this and I have neither the time or brainpower to do so.

Since I love discussing all of this, I would urge you to come back later!

the more I watch of Torchwood, the less Gwen bothers me. I still don't *like* her, and I don't think I'm going to, but the more sense she makes to me and the less she irritates the hell out of me.

Sometimes I find I'm liking Gwen in spite of myself. I don't approve of her, particularly, because she doesn't use the brains she was born with, but I find her role and her relationships interesting.

Anyway, I'm glad if she's annoying you less!

Jack in my mind *IS* a solider. Not just in Cyberwoman, but in general.

Yes, the more I see, the more I see it that way. Especially since we now know he was in the military (and in a war) at a young age. It comes through frequently - and I always loved that moment in Boom Town when the Doctor says, "Waaait a minute, who's in charge her?" and Jack snaps into military mode, "Yes, sir! whatever you say, sir!" and the Doctor says, "What he said..." It's a tease, but a tease that reveals a lot of the character and attitudes of both of them, and reminds us that both of them have a military background - though what a military background actually consists of when you're a Time Lord is not entirely clear to me.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

Okay, still no brain power but I'm awake so giving this a go.
(1)Though they could, I suppose, pass it back and forth.

I did catch that Jack tossed the stopwatch to Ianto, but with Jack's "So" I assumed it was just a piece of equipment that they kept around from the previous experiments with the glove. I can't really imagine Jack leaving his personal-personal items lying about the hub. Seeing the idea that it belonged to Jack explored appeals to me, greatly, though. It certainly makes things interesting now just with the immediate scene at the end, but Ianto's exchange with Owen earlier.


(2) I wonder whether we'll see them again

All I've got is : So do I.

(3) I see the love triangle of Jack/Gwen/Suzie as being the psychologically significant one, not Owen/Gwen/Suzie.

I definitely see the important interaction here being about Jack, Gwen, and Suzie, but more about Suzie/Jack and Suzie/Gwen than Jack/Gwen. I don't know if it's because I don't read them right (and I admit I have a hard time comprehending the motivations going on beneath the surface there), but their interaction seemed almost incidental to me. To me the important things going on were Jack-Suzie; his killing her, immortality, her need for him to love her and let her replace Gwen again, and Gwen-Suzie for similar reasons. Jack/Gwen didn't seem to do much in the episode that struck me as important, and I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

(4)while in "Countricide" Ianto says he never liked camping.

I never considered it a contradiction, but I'd never contemplated the potential explanations for it, either. I'm glad I have now, because there are a lot of them and they're fun.

(5) Interesting that Jack let Toshiko destroy the pendant

I definitely have a different take on this one. I definitely think Jack is using Torchwood to serve his own purposes, whatever those may be, but I also really think that Torchwood essentially belongs to Jack. He really seems to do what he wants to do - and I don't think that's because he's sneaky, but rather there's no one else that can (or will) tell him otherwise. I personally suspect he LIKES it, and likes what he's doing, but that he's the one doing it. Not just at Torchwood Three, but in general. I'm not sure I'm articulating what I mean well, but essentially: Yes, he's using Torchwood to do what he wants, but I don't particularly think there's any con involved.

(6) I have noticed the many references to something moving/lurking/coming in the dark, which originally didn't make much of an impression at all. I wrote it off as general spooky atmosphere.

I really, really, don't know what this means but I suspect it's something. The dark may be the void, it may not but I can't help being curious and really wanting to know.

(7) The more I watch, the more the characters seem well-drawn, with carefully set-up motivations and subtle revelations of purpose and character.

Yes, absolutely. The more I watch and pay attention the more I understand what's going on - or at least I think I do. Like you, it's not hte plot that makes more sense, it's the characters I grasp better. I still have only the vaguest idea what I think of Ianto, but Gwen I'm getting and I think I've got Tosh, Owen, and Jack (In reverse order).

(8) I continue to find the Jack/Gwen relationship extremely interesting. Gwen doesn't annoy me at all this time through, perhaps because I know what to expect from her.

Gwen is definitely becoming less annoying to me. Jack's relationship with and to Gwen is something that I still don't intuitively understand, but it does interest me and sometimes I get a flicker of emotional understanding that's helpful.

(9) Apparently the line "Guess you aren't from around these parts" is from Oklahoma!

Oh, like Jack liking musicals is a surprise *G*. Okay, it is a bit, because I hadn't thought about it, but now that I have it fits well. Really well.

And I've covered 10 in my earlier comment.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

I can't really imagine Jack leaving his personal-personal items lying about the hub.

Please discard this particular bit, as Jack apparently had the watch on him - though it somehow doesn't really discount my impression of it being a piece of equipment they used to time with the glove and Jack just didn't care - I STILL like the idea that it was Jack's and could easily buy it, if I spin the relationship between Jack and Ianto right. Which, knowing almost nothing about it, could very well be the truth.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What I like best about the watch is that it works as a metaphor on numerous levels at once. Time is an essential symbol of Jack as Time Agent, time traveller, TARDIS companion, man from both the past and the future. The stopwatch echoes the technology of the 1940s, dear to Jack's heart and part of his outward image. So Ianto using the stopwatch as a reference to the sex between them is inspired - all the more so if the stopwatch belonged to Jack.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can't really imagine Jack leaving his personal-personal items lying about the hub.

But he does, all the time. He doesn't own much besides his clothes - but arguably his most valued posession is the hand, which sits around the office. I think the stopwatch was in his pocket. Alongside - I add with a certain tongue-in-cheek glee, because I can't prove it - his TARDIS key.

Seeing the idea that it belonged to Jack explored appeals to me, greatly, though.

Me too. For one thing, time and timepieces are iconic in this show - symbols of Jack's unmentioned time travel - we see them over and over, in the background, long before Bilis' shop. And it's so cool to think that Ianto uses Jack's own stopwatch to seduce him.

I don't know if it's because I don't read them [Jack/Gwen] right ... but their interaction seemed almost incidental to me.

Really? I see a lot of UST there, in both directions. Obviously Jack hasn't had sex with Gwen and doesn't intend to, but there is a strong mutual personal connection - physical attraction going both ways and something else, I think, something of significance to Jack but unknown to Gwen or the others. I have various theories as to what it might be, and they aren't mutually exclusive. I see this in Jack's relative trust of Gwen, the glances they sometimes exchange, the gun-room scene, the way he sometimes keeps her around privately to talk (or vent).

In "They Keep Killing Suzie", the Jack/Gwen element comes out in several ways - the way he handles Gwen with the 'acrobat' story when she's angry, the way he feels protective of her, but mostly in Suzie's insistance that Jack won't kill her if there's a spark of Gwen inside her - clearly Suzie thinks Gwen is personally important to Jack. I think she's right. (But not in the way she thinks she is.)

I really, really, don't know what this means but I suspect it's something. The dark may be the void

I think it's just absence of life - that the dichotomy set up in the show is not life/death but life/absence of life, if that differentiation makes sense. And I think the creature/force/thing lurking in the darkness is Abaddon, looking for his chance to escape.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I think of the hand as more a pet than a posession. Sort of goldfish-y.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, it lives in a glass case filled with liquid, and the lights and filtration system looks very aquarium-like, so I can see the 'goldfish' analogy. I don't expect it needs to be fed like a goldfish does, though.

[lauradi7.livejournal.com]

Gwen doesn't annoy me, except that I really wanted to slap her for having sex with Owen.
In the way that deep down Jack will always be a soldier, deep down Gwen will always be a cop, of the good sort (to serve and protect), but also to
really investigate and get to the bottom of something. I don't see UST between Jack and Gwen at all. I think this is a good influence on the others.
Jack and Gween seem to have some sort of literal psychic connection from time to time. More important, I think Jack really wanted her to be the normal life home and family surrogate not just for him but maybe for all of them, which is why he was so bitter about the Gwen/Owen fling.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Gwen doesn't annoy me, except that I really wanted to slap her for having sex with Owen.

She annoys me most when she does really stupid things, like taking a serial killer out of custody for a long-distance drive. Did she really think she could handle that?

I love Gwen's detection skills, how she'll get curious about something and go after it with determination until she has it figured out. I also like it that she tends to be concerned about protecting people (even from themselves), and that kindness is important to her. As is understanding why people do what they do.

I don't see UST between Jack and Gwen at all.

While it seems very obvious to me - at least as obvious as that between Jack and Ianto. With the difference, of course, that Jack actually has sex with Ianto.

Jack and Gween seem to have some sort of literal psychic connection from time to time.

Yes, I think so.

I think Jack really wanted her to be the normal life home and family surrogate not just for him but maybe for all of them

Yes, I agree absolutely. In a 'this is what it's all about, really' kind of way. That's important to him - people with normal connections, happy home life. Rhys' mundanity makes it all the more important to Jack. But it leaves Gwen feeling trapped between two worlds - one of which she doesn't belong in any more.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

As for 3. -- your phrasing, here, puts me in mind that Suzie clearly sees that sex with Owen is not love; it now seems to me that the relationship that Jack can have with his people, non-sexual intense intimacy, is as real as love can get. (I sound like a Cole Porter song!)

As for 4. -- no, Ianto may not dislike camping. He may, however, have so much emotion invested in any and all memories of Lisa, especially including these her last spoken words to him, that he simply cannot bear any association. This, of course, makes him excruciatingly dutiful and brave to have come out on a camping trip. Also could have hoped for some "overwrite" memories from the current trip, to help ease off from the intensity of hurt still held over from his other camping memories... which were quite lovely, I am sure, when Lisa was alive and human, because two in a sleeping bag is the next best thing after two in a comfy bed under a down quilt during a blizzard ;-]

As for 6. -- yes, it is becoming an intriguing parallel. But one that could pass by a person's ears so easily.

And as for 9. -- yep, that was definitely a stage accent, there! Big and bold as the wide prairie!... where the wind goes sweeping down the plain, where the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet when the wind comes right behind the rain! (What I'm saying is, I have heard many Southern accents, and this one isn't a color found in nature. Which does not make it one bit less endearing.)

Delightful observations. I look forward to many more. Let's watch them all again.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it now seems to me that the relationship that Jack can have with his people, non-sexual intense intimacy, is as real as love can get.

So very true! Jack is good at that, and I think this is what he has developed with Gwen, for example - not intimacy in the sense that he is confiding deeply in her, but intimacy in the sense that they mean a lot to each other at a profound level.

I sound like a Cole Porter song!

Does that mean I've corrupted you by playing too much Cole Porter while you're around?

Ianto may not dislike camping. He may, however, have so much emotion invested in any and all memories of Lisa, especially including these her last spoken words to him, that he simply cannot bear any association.

Good memories turned bad by later circumstances? Could be.

Also could have hoped for some "overwrite" memories from the current trip, to help ease off from the intensity of hurt still held over from his other camping memories...

Right! Partying with cannibals! That'll make it all better.

Let's watch them all again.

Happily.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Right! Partying with cannibals! That'll make it all better.

...partying is such sweet sorrow....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The thing about Ianto: he can always go to Jack for consolation.

Until the end of "End of Days", anyway.

[rivier.livejournal.com]

Just a big YES to what you say here (picked up via the newsletter in case you were wondering). One of the things I'm enjoying hugely about Torchwood now the season has ended, and we're into introspection time while we wait, is that this is definitely a show which rewards re-watching. With some fannish sources, I know I'm basically picking up fragments on rewatching that are nice, but seldom especially significant. With Torchwood, the best way I can put this is that the first viewing tends to sweep me along in the momentum and I miss quite significant 'tells', and also that many elements just don't show their significance until you've seen the whole.

For the former, for example, first time out I missed Cyber-Lisa watching the team scatter in the Hub as Jack tries to put together a survival strategy. "Run," she says coldly, "We all ran." In rewatching, that just made me shiver - how she is there, at one and the same time, both the memory of that frightened victim in the crowd at Torchwood HQ, and the instrument of her own death as a human. In the same vein, I love the attention to set design that has Ianto furnishing Lisa's lair with a nice framed picture of the two of them, and some honely standard lamps - that idea of him trying to somehow bring a domestic note into that grim room makes me happy.

And your point about the stopwatch being Jack's in the first place is a good example of the latter. I particularly like the intentional messiness of Torchwood, the way that so many moments are fragmented parts of larger narratives which aren't always spelled out perfectly and explicitly, but which feel both more organic and - for me - more realistic. I feel as if I could speculate for ever on what was going on in the camp-site look that passes between Jack and Ianto, after Ianto buzz-kills the snogging meme. Is it anger, reproach, guilt, obliviousness...? The only thing that can't be denied is that something is happening there!

I also like the way that the BBC's online Hub interface interacts as quasi-canon. I haven't encountered a show before where the episodes themselves are in effect running in parallel with a more or less legitimate extra canon source, one that also both fills in gaps and raises more questions. I guess what I'm finding is that while I started by enjoying Torchwood at a very instinctive, reactive way, the more I watch, the more I'm struck by how much thoughtfulness has gone into the whole enterprise, and how much of that isn't really pushed into the audience's face but just left there for any of us to find if we want it. Good times!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

"We all ran."

Yes, that struck me as chilling this time too. She remembers being Lisa and she can use that and it makes her no less a Cyberman. (Shudder.)

I complained from the beginning about 'unevenness' in the writing but the more I watch the more it seems very, very intricate and clever even when it doesn't entirely work. And (like most of my favourite shows) it repays rewatching well, in subtle ways. It's very internally consistent, and that impresses me. Reactions that were mysterious when they happened seem revealing when you go back to them after the end of the series. (The long glance and the nod between Jack and Ianto at the end of "Cyberwoman", for example.)

And the campsite scene - yes. The more I think about it, the more interesting it was. Was Ianto's attitude to Jack reproachful? Challenging? Hopeful? Accusatory? It could have been any of these things, depending on how you want to interpret it.

"Organic" is a well-chosen word for it. (Growing like the TARDIS on Jack's desk, mysterious but taking shape as we get to know it better.)

I haven't encountered a show before where the episodes themselves are in effect running in parallel with a more or less legitimate extra canon source, one that also both fills in gaps and raises more questions.

Though I haven't been reading it much, the Heroes website seems to be doing that as well. There's a simultaneous comic book that fills in story gaps, a blog by one of the main characters, and other 'canonical' material. I love it that Torchwood does this so effectively.

I added you to my flist, because I've noticed before how thoughtful and interesting your posts are.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

RTD said during DW S1 that Jack was created to be "the Doctor's soldier". Being a soldier is always going to be as central a part of his character as being a former Time Agent.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

RTD said during DW S1 that Jack was created to be "the Doctor's soldier".

He did? I think I missed that. Oooh, I love it. Perfect. Even now in Torchwood, even separated from the Doctor in space in time as he has been, he's still fighting for the Doctor's causes, still being his soldier.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

Yes, something like, "the Doctor's soldier, to do all the action-hero stuff that the Doctor doesn't do."

Before CE quit, RTD had planned the whole of Series 2 to be Nine/Jack/Rose where that Head/Hands/Heart dynamic could play out. I was not a happy camper when I realized what we missed out on.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Before CE quit, RTD had planned the whole of Series 2 to be Nine/Jack/Rose where that Head/Hands/Heart dynamic could play out.

Eeeeeeee! What he could have done with that.

I guess it explains why series 2 was the way it was.

I was not a happy camper when I realized what we missed out on.

I'm going to try not to think about it. (I suppose we had a few hints of it, but not enough!) I really, really missed Jack in series 2 (of course) and am very curious as to what his role will be like in series 3.