World Enough and Time

Nice quote.
I just can't bring myself to go comparing things that way, but it does makes sense.

(I really tried to run a comparison. I can't. It's not fair to whatever I'm trying to compare.)

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Well, Ellis is talking in terms of approaching the creation of a work - comics, in this case, or music - so maybe if you take it out of context it turns into a comparison of apples and oranges. And maybe it shouldn't ever be visible to the person who reads or looks at or listens to the finished creative work because it's none of their business anwyay, and if it's actually visible, the artist has failed. It's like saying 'a picture is worth a thousand words' but being aware that not all pictures, and not all words, are equal, so one picture might be worth ten words and another would be worth ten thousand.... and it depends not just on the specific picture but the nature of the words.

I am always fascinated by the role of 'absence' in art. Like the rests between notes. The use of space (as opposed to form or colour) in pictures. This has a lot to do with pacing and composition - I guess you can see it in television, too, and I love it when the use of colour or space is such as to frame or set off a character.

Torchwood does this well - I am thinking of Captain Jack leaning against the wall at the Hub, so we see him surrounded by white tile. Or when he faces Abaddon and we see him from above, in the middle of grass and stone. I suppose this is a contemplation of how the background frames the foreground, but it's a little more than that - it's taking a background without detail to highlight the foreground.

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I just ran a brief test. Trying to compare two movies. (All that Jazz and The Princess Bride in particular, a pair I love).
I can't!

Oh yes, absences can have amazing effect. Inaction. Silence. Emptiness. Rest.
In art.
In part, because we have imagination. My own tends to rush in and fill the blanks with things that even surprise me. (And the classic example is Homer's Helena. No description of her. But it was the face that launched a thousand ships...)

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Trying to compare two movies. (All that Jazz and The Princess Bride

LOL. You do like a challenge, don't you?

I don't remember The Princess Bride enough to recall how it integrates text and picture. All That Jazz - I do remember it as having a remarkable use of white space and music to highlight and underscore not just text (i.e., dialogue) but facial expressions and body language.

My own tends to rush in and fill the blanks with things that even surprise me

That's what's supposed to happen!

(And the classic example is Homer's Helena. No description of her. But it was the face that launched a thousand ships...)

True - we may each picture a different face, but the image is so strong.

Speaking of that line - when I saw "Doctor Faustus" by Marlowe a couple of months ago, I thought it was fascinating that the actor who played Helen wore a featureless mask. It was very effective.

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You do like a challenge, don't you?

Always.

Anyhow. The Princess Bride... Unless you had special aversion to it (I can't imagine that, but it's a possibility), I recommend re-watching it. The goodies in it range from parody of a good many swordfights, to a parody of logic puzzles, to parody of rulers and lovers (eh... a predecessor of Shrek is what I call it), to quite real pain and beauty. The mixture is exquisite. Not just text and picture ("Bye, bye, boys! Have fun storming the castle!"), but also physical action and interactions. And... erm. Layers.
Although I admit the white spaces are a little scarce. There are some, but it's not a white-space intensive movie.

All that Jazz is just brilliant. Text and vision and motion - those dances. And layers. Layers upon layers... I've seen it more than ten times, and each time I'm still detangling something. White spaces - true. Also great contrast between complex and simple... and plenty of other things.

Technically, All That Jazz is the better of the two.
But that just cannot de-value The Princess Bride for me.
That's why I cannot compare them. They are both examples in the same medium, but... They are just too different.

That's what's supposed to happen!

Well, sometimes the white space is used to accentuate the content. Make it more... presentable. Or separate two entities with a breath. I just can't leave well enough alone, it seems.

I thought it was fascinating that the actor who played Helen wore a featureless mask. It was very effective.

Oh. I can almost imagine. :) I seem to hit on other people's experiences today :)

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Yes, I should indeed see The Princess Bride again. Haven't seen it in many years. All my friends love it. I was myself disappointed in it - maybe it put me off because I dislike parody, and because the subject it was parodying is so very dear to my heart? Whatever the case, it struck me the wrong way on that first viewing, and I've always thought I should see it again to reassess.

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Me, I like parody. Well, reasonable parody.
The Princess Bride parodied a lot of things, but it did _not_ parody love, although at a couple of times in the movie it almost seems that way. It did parody a lot the participants (especially the passive pretty girl who either needs saving or will stop living, romantically - and I so loved the un-romantic way she was stopped from doing so), but it did not devalue the feeling. Nor of the love of Inigo for his father. Nor of the love between friends, and sometimes enemies. Nor love that withstands the test of time - even though the spouses may fight, and hurt each other, the love the binds them is right there...

What really impressed me about it was the finesse with which _some_ of the parody was and humour were introduced. The rhyming giant, for example. And that swordfight.
I haven't been trained in swordfight. But I've seen many, many movies where it happens. And the Princess Bride sequence, technically good, as far as I can determine, is raised to another level by the parody that is contained in it.

If the subject that you disliked being paroided is other than love, I'd love to hear what it is. And I'd love to hear your impressions after you see it again. So far, people I know have either loved it, or not seen it yet. The section of my mind that is fascinated with comparative analysis of people's perceptions (especially of art) would looove to learn another opinion.

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The Princess Bride parodied a lot of things, but it did _not_ parody love

On watching again, I will keep that in mind.

If the subject that you disliked being paroided is other than love, I'd love to hear what it is.

It was years ago and I'm not sure how much of my reactions, or the reasons for them, I can remember at all. It wasn't just love... though that was part of it... it was parodying the swashbuckling genre, something that almost doesn't exist any more, and of which there are very few quality examples, but which I love excessively. And keep in mind I'm not usually fond of comedy, though I do like romantic comedy.

The section of my mind that is fascinated with comparative analysis of people's perceptions (especially of art) would looove to learn another opinion.

My memory is letting us both down, but if/when I get to see it again (and I'll see if I can do so soon), I'll tell you what I think this time.

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Oh, and how _are_ you today? Did you go to the doctor yesterday?
I sometimes get so lost in intellectual/emotional discussions...
:)

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Oh, and how _are_ you today?

Congested and sick, but slowly getting better. Or maybe I'm getting better fast and it only seems slow! It's much easier to sit up today, and to move in general.

I went to the doctor and she said I had a 'flu-like virus' that should start to get better by the weekend, and she suggested a cough medicine that really does seem to be helping. She also said I was badly congested, but you know, I'd already figured that out. (g) In other words: I may feel miserable, but it isn't really serious and shouldn't last too long.

I sometimes get so lost in intellectual/emotional discussions...

Well, I have to thank you, because it's just the distraction I need from my aches and pains!

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I may feel miserable, but it isn't really serious and shouldn't last too long.

Ouch.
I really dislike feeling ill, not in the least less so for the fact that I tend to be the healthiest member of the family (my brother, born 1986, definitely being the sickliest). I'm glad you're feeling better, if only a little, and I hope you continue on the mend :)

it's just the distraction I need from my aches and pains!

Oh, good! I also think that the less I concentrate on pain and ache, the less I feel it (so I'm always trying to find something to distract me when I hurt. Uh... to be honest, that has been known to include trying to read while having a migraine).

So, while discussing The Princess Bride, I realized that although I'm not too keen on comparing two pieces of art (I even find it hard to make myself order the Bujold works by how much I like them, beyond the top three, and there is a reasonable basis for comparison); I do love to compare people's perceptions (repeating myself) and impressions of the _same_ work - and comparing people's perceptions with mine.

Perhaps part of the reason for that my stepfather, who would start asking me, as soon as we were out of the movie theater, questions like "Did you like it?" "What exactly did you like?" "What happened in the movie?" (or, respectively, books, etc.). On one hand, that helped me fix a lot of things in my memory; on the other, it did make me realize that people can see different things happening in a movie.

And another part of the reason is that for years, almost as far back as I can remember, I have wished to see the world as somebody else sees it. For a very short while. I don't want to become them, just to share the perceptions, and be able to (this part came later than the first time I had the wish, at probably six) evaluate how different human beings really _are_.
I know that to see things from another person's PoV, I have to be that person, so the above wish is... impossible. But still. I love to compare notes (even if sometimes I react by trying to overwhelm the other person with arguments why _my_ view was valid - and I have only recently realized there is no "valid" way to look at things, just different ways). And I've been nurturing my drive to empathy... up to the point that I empathyse with fictional, incredible, impossible characters...

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I tend to be the healthiest member of the family

Lucky you! I've been sick a lot - mostly in my childhood. So this is at least familiar (unwelcome) territory. There's nothing good about feeling sick.

the less I concentrate on pain and ache, the less I feel it

True. Distractions are good.

that has been known to include trying to read while having a migraine).

I've never succeeded in doing that! I've tried - but a migraine defeats me.

I even find it hard to make myself order the Bujold works by how much I like them, beyond the top three

So which are your top three? Mine would be... hmm... Shards of Honour, Barrayar and Memory, I think.

I do love to compare people's perceptions (repeating myself) and impressions of the _same_ work - and comparing people's perceptions with mine.

I do too. I have a friend who often likes the same things I do, but for entirely different reasons. It doesn't make sense, but it's rather fun. I love comparing reactions - it's part of the way I like to analyze what I watch.

I have wished to see the world as somebody else sees it.

I feel I'm doing that whenever I read a book, or see a movie. Or even, I suppose, have a conversation. But it's fun to go more deeply than one usually is able to.

evaluate how different human beings really _are_

It's always hard to know, isn't it? Stuck inside our own heads. (Ape-brains. Meant in the nicest possible way.) Sometimes we seem amazingly different, sometimes very alike. Sometimes both at the same time.

And I've been nurturing my drive to empathy... up to the point that I empathyse with fictional, incredible, impossible characters...

Yes - and isn't it fun?

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I've never succeeded in doing that! I've tried - but a migraine defeats me.

Well. I'm very stubborn. Then, I had my migraines mostly between ages 12 and 15 (since then, I've been blessed by a respite. Judging by my mother, they are likely to return, but...), and at that age most people are dreadfully energetic.
Reading was for the times when I couldn't fall asleep (when I had a migraine, I would most likely sleep for half an hour or an hour, then wake up and not be able to sleep again for at least that long). I had to do something... And I definitely wasn't going to sit up and study. And there was always some good book or another...

So which are your top three?
ACC, SoH, Memory. (I remember your love for Aral and the corollary preference for the earlier books, but ACC was just another level of reality, for me)
Of the fantasy... for now, CoC.

By seeing the world as somebody else, I mean completely. Have another set of senses. See the colors differently, hear different noises...
I know what you mean by I feel I'm doing that whenever I read a book, or see a movie., because that's what I feel too, but this empathy is just a part of the experience I'm imagining...

(Oooh. I shouldn't have mentioned to the RPG-ers that I was trying to do a translation of a Bulgarian song, and failing. They want it anyway... And I left the attempt at work. Have to do it again...
And I hoped to be resting tonight ;)
)

I think I'm not going to watch EoD tonight either, btw. The mere thought of the team betraying Jack is giving me a very bad feeling. Besides, I am not sure if I want to replace the Jack/Jack magic by something else. At least for another night.
Perhaps my wish to see Bilis may turn the tide, though. I loved the actor in The Phantom of the Opera...

Maybe tomorrow.

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I had my migraines mostly between ages 12 and 15ACC, SoH, Memory

Close! Such good books. I've only read ACC once, and want to read it again soon.

Of the fantasy... for now, CoC.

My favourite of the fantasies is The Sharing Knife: Beguilement.

The mere thought of the team betraying Jack is giving me a very bad feeling.

I have a huge love/hate relationship with that episode. I totally can't bear the betrayal scene. But the ending is so wonderful... So I've been watching bits and pieces, individual scenes, totally out of chronological order.

I am not sure if I want to replace the Jack/Jack magic by something else.

I was glad I had a day or two between the episodes. I watched Captain Jack Harkness at least two or three times before going on.

I loved the actor in The Phantom of the Opera...

Who is he? Was it the movie, or a live performance?

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I think Harkness may be my new fic PoV (well, it will be a relief, after Gwen...)

The actor was Rayer, the conductor, in the movie. Not a huge part, but I loved him.
But then, I loved the movie top to bottom...

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Harkness may be my new fic PoV

Wonderful! Go for it!

The actor was Rayer, the conductor, in the movie.

I don't remember him. Must watch it again...

I loved the movie top to bottom...

I liked it very much indeed - though I liked the stage version better. (More moody and angsty.) I've only seen it once, and really do want to see it again.

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Heh. Pity I cannot base any slash on that and remain in canon.

PotO. I haven't seen any stage productions (though I've listened to the original cast recordings plenty). Talking about different perceptions, a friend of mine who was on Work and Travel in New York went to see it on Broadway (probably in 2002 or 03) and was honestly disappointed.
I suppose her expectations were too high.
For me, the movie was surprising on several counts, but oh, I loved Gerard Butler. And Emmy Rossum grew on me. And Raoul (have to look up the actor... shame! Patrick Wilson) was so... dashing. Miranda Richardson. Ciaran Hinds. Minnie Driver...
Gah.

On a very side note (or not), did you get to read Royce's Sarah Jane story? Did you like it? I'm curious...

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Pity I cannot base any slash on that and remain in canon.

I read a story that managed to do so. I think it was one of the ones I recced the other day. A very clever plot, I thought. Yes, it's the last story I mentioned here: http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/575291.html.

a friend of mine who was on Work and Travel in New York went to see it on Broadway (probably in 2002 or 03) and was honestly disappointed.

Really? It's hard to imagine how that show could disappoint! I saw it in Toronto and enjoyed it very much indeed.

I loved Gerard Butler

I always love Gerard Butler. He was the only good thing about Timeline and I'm eager to see him in 300.

On a very side note (or not), did you get to read Royce's Sarah Jane story? Did you like it? I'm curious...

Oh, yes, I did. Very much.

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Will check the story out. Tomorrow... *yawns*... oops, sorry!

Live PotO - she was disappointed by all the playback singing, and said that the effects were ambitious, but badly executed, so they spoiled the experience.
Then of course, if she was used to the recordings of Sarah Brightman and Michael Crawford... well, it's not easy to come up after them, that's for sure.

Gerard Butler - I hadn't seen him anywhere before PotO, but it was adoration at first sight. And I wasn't the only one on whom that man has this effect. One of my friends had a good anecdote to tell about watching Atilla on a bus. I still haven't dared that movie, primarily because I dislike the sad endings of sagas (too much of king Arthur and Robin Hood, I guess... and other readings of great rulers... who just have to pass on, and their works crumble to dust..

But I shall watch it, eventually :)

Re Royce's story... I've started beta-ing a bunch of his stories, and I got stuck because of an overload of other things... and the stories are lovely and I feel guilty. So he's been on my mind lately, and I decided to ask.
Also, the Jack/Jack combo really made me think about those stories (where an immortal elf, and a very ephimeral creature, who's given half her life to have children in a trade with the gods) fall in love. Here is our Jack, immortal, and Harkness, who dies tomorrow. I can definitely see a parallel...

I think I'll be going to bed now. Past 1 a.m.... Friday night or not, I'm getting very sleepy (and rather snarky, in some conversations...) Have a good... evening :) and talk to you later!

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she was disappointed by all the playback singing

Technical problems can mess things up - even if it's just being badly done. An off night. I once saw a production of Cats where you really couldn't understand most of the words to most of the songs. It lost a lot of its point and was sort of boring.

Here is our Jack, immortal, and Harkness, who dies tomorrow. I can definitely see a parallel...

Yes. I like that. Other thoughts: Both Jacks actually died the next day. Our Jack came back. But in doing so, and in living under the other Jack's name, he brings the other Jack back in a symbolic way too. Especially when he's still fighting the good fight against the enemy creatures.

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There's an echo of 'absence' in everyday speech too ... English and the Germanic languages seem to lean towards that behaviour, in contrast to Romance languages such as French and Italian [and Portuguese?] which do not.
I frequently see patterns in the printed page caused by gaps between words. I wonder if certain poets have used this to express ASCII art?
And yes, having an empty or patterned (tiled) background in a picture or image *does* tend to accentuate the picture's foreground.

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There's an echo of 'absence' in everyday speech too

So very true. You can see this when a really good trained Shakespearean actor delivers a monologue - it can be used to amazing effect. Or in dialogue, the impact of how quickly or slowly each actor speaks or answers. Or, conversely, it can be seen in the difficulty in conversing with someone with a speech impediment. There is so much more to language, communication, and conversation than the words alone.

I wonder if certain poets have used this to express ASCII art?

Yes, and not just in ASCII. There's a poetic movement from the 1950s called concrete poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_poetry). I've also seen it in other contexts.

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I know of some people who have tried; I'm mainly thinking of John McWhorter in his recent book Doing our own Thing, where he is **very** critical of the "counter-culture" in general. [I suspect that part of the reason he selected that as a target is the fact that he is based on the West Coast; I would be more likely to criticize our attachment to certain material things (cars and TV) as the root of a great many social ills.]

And I do agree; "density" as such has nothing to do with the word count -- there are plenty of grooks (http://duncanmac.livejournal.com/8894.html) to prove otherwise.

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What does McWhorter define as 'counter-culture'? I am always deeply suspicious when the term is used, because I think it is either meaningless, or it is used to cover a series of unwarranted assumptions about identity, culture, and conformity. In other words, I am a 'counter-culture' person but I don't think anyone observing my life would classify me as such. Not currently, anyway. And it implies a consensus among nonconformists which, by definition, doesn't exist.

I would be more likely to criticize our attachment to certain material things (cars and TV) as the root of a great many social ills.

Good heavens yes.

there are plenty of grooks to prove otherwise

What a well-chosen example! Yes, indeed.

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He seems to be using it as a 'portmanteau' (catch-all) term for a rejection of "the Establishment" as well as a rejection of any type of formality in speech or writing. Referring to [North American] people's habits when eating certain types of food (e.g. watermelon slices), he comments "linguistically, Americans eat with their faces now." He goes on at much greater length in this rather vain vein. Having lived in more formal (sub)cultures than he has, I have to disagree with him, as I noted earlier. [He also mentions that he has never encountered the word fane; I know I have in my reading on occasion, and you probably have too.]

I'd go on at much greater length about his view of "counter-culture," but ideally I'd like to incorporate it into my review of this book ... to be completed Real Soon Now. :-)

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He seems to be using it as a 'portmanteau' (catch-all) term for a rejection of "the Establishment" as well as a rejection of any type of formality in speech or writing.

Interesting. I'd say those are two very different things! I reject "the Establishment" (though I think that's another loose, almost-meaningless portmanteau term loaded with assumptions) but I certainly don't reject formality of speech and writing. In fact, I think the latter is a life-line to sanity, to which our culture unconsciously clings.

"linguistically, Americans eat with their faces now."

LOL! What a phrase.

He also mentions that he has never encountered the word fane

Meaning temple? Yes, I think I've seen it. Don't recall where.

I'd like to incorporate it into my review of this book ... to be completed Real Soon Now. :-)

I look forward to it. Are you going to put it on your LJ? Or in Apaplexy? Or both?

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Re the word "fane", yes I was using it as a word meaning "temple" or "place of worship." IIRC, it also had a "pagan" [i.e. pejorative] connotation for the old (Victorian) writers that I don't grok very well -- most of my friends are (techno)pagans these days.

And yes, I intend to put up the book review in both Apaplexy ("the apa") and LJ once it's done.

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