Torchwood: A few random thoughts on characters and themes...

[fajrdrako]

I'll put this under cuts for spoilers. I'm really feeling much too unwell to say much of anything; but there's an idea or two that didn't fit into my previous post that I might as well write before I lose the train of thought.

The Jack/Ianto relationship didn't go as I expected. Not in the least. I expected it to deepen and become more defined as a love affair - something to anchor Jack to the present and to Torchwood, and give him a warm, stable connection of companionship. Instead, it was pretty much the opposite. At the end, Jack's love - Jack's specific love, and his deepest love - refocussed again on the Doctor, taking him away from Torchwood.

In "Captain Jack Harkness" Jack said to Harkness that he didn't have anyone, which implies that Ianto's love for him was not reciprocated, or at least, to his mind, not relevant. His more generalized love-for-all-the-team, expressed at the end of "End of Days", was more sexualized with Ianto than with the others - that kiss! - but the wide and generous distribution of his love to each of them robbed it of particularly.

I like this. It follows on various thoughts I've had on the polyamorous nature of these shows, which I will get around to articulating in more detail at some point. Put simply, I like the way there are so many different kinds and degrees of love shown, all of them good.

But it does somewhat reduce Ianto's role in Jack's life. I'm trying to put it into focus. Jack loves Ianto, but not more nor less than the others - having sex doesn't change the nature or intensity of that love.

Given the above - that sex does not necessarily redefine Jack's loving relationships - it seems all the more surprising to me that Jack never had sex with Gwen. But he did so clearly want her to be faithful to Rhys, to be normal and stable and happy in her personal life. So he wouldn't seduce her, and wasn't happy about it when Owen did. But unlike Tosh, he wasn't jealous - it was just that he wanted Gwen to be happy with Rhys, which, under the circumstances, made fidelity a good idea. This is not necessarily the attitude I'd expect from Jack, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

For various reasons, I thought for many weeks that Rhys was going to die before the end of series 1. I didn't want him to die - I love the man almost as much as Gwen does. But his death seemed to me in many ways to be a thematic probability. Surprisingly, though, when he was killed by Bilis, from that moment I didn't believe this would be a real or permanent death. The tone was wrong. Too much blood. And they would not do a real death after a fake one. So I knew Rhys would be all right.

It took me a minute to work out why Bilis killed Rhys: but it was because he needed to give Gwen sufficiently strong incentive to turn on Jack so he could not stop her and the others from opening the Rift. I guess, from the other side, Abaddon's telepathy was too weak to influence them.

I really, really liked Bilis. More interesting than Abaddon. A little disappointing when he wasn't the heavy big-time villain, and Abaddon was.

Didn't we just see them al do one of those things that in the Doctor Who universe you can't do? Cross the person's timeline? Shift time so the person you wanted to be alive is no longer dead? Change the world for one's one personal desires, as with Rose and her father in "Father's Day"? I suppose that's the whole point - this time they didn't get the creepy symbolic bat-creatures, they got Abaddon.

And of course, even in Doctor Who, those forbidden things keep happening, which is why we have plots. You can't cross your own timeline, you can't resurrect the dead, you can't cross from one universe to another - so what happens when you do? That's where the stories lie.

I liked Owen more in this episode than in any of the others - even "Out of Time", where he was most interesting and had more happen to him. I'm not sure why; perhaps because he seemed both more dangerous than ever, and more vulnerable than ever.

Jack's young friend mentioned in "Captain Jack Harkness", the one he went to war with who was tortured to death, am I wrong to think they were lovers? Or to suspect that the creatures they were fighting might have been Daleks?

What did Owen say to Ianto in "Captain Jack Harkness" after he said he was 'just a tea-boy' and before he said he was Jack's 'part-time shag'? (C'mon, guys, speak more clearly on the Good Bits.)

Addendum: It looks as if monkeyqueentart over on torch_wood answered this for me:

Owen: You're just a teaboy.
Ianto: I'm much more than that. Jack needs me.
Owen: In your dreams, Ianto. Your sad wet dreams when you're his part-time shag maybe.

Sounds about right to me. And it seems to me now in retrospect that Ianto is quite right that he is 'much more than that', but essentially wrong in believing that Jack needs him.

How many times will Jack have to give his life to save others? I suppose it's a moot point now, because thanks to Rose, he won't die. But still. He was better off as a coward, but he's really quite magnificent as a self-sacrificing hero. And now this has me thinking about the symbolic periodic killing of the Corn King, and the role of death-sacrifice in myth, and that probably means I should stop rambling now.

I know some people don't like John Barrowman's acting style, but I thought that in the last two episodes he outdid himself. The number of subtle (and sometimes conflicting) emotions he showed was amazing,

For some reason I can't quite analyze, I am thrilled and delighted that Jack has gone to the TARDIS in his military greatcoat. Probably just the general sexiness of it all.

Comments

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Well, the Jack/Ianto thing surprised me too - I expected for a long time that Ianto was plotting against Jack, using sex as a tool. I also thought that Jack liked Ianto more than Ianto liked him. Obviously all wrong - Ianto has deeper feelings for Jack than Jack has for him. I don't think Jack is callously using Ianto, but it's not an equal relationship and it's not love on Jack's part. I think had the real JH not been destined to die and had there been a way for our Jack to stay with him - that could have been love for Jack - they had a spark, and it would have been a relationship of equals.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, the Jack/Ianto thing surprised me too - I expected for a long time that Ianto was plotting against Jack, using sex as a tool.

Yes, that was always a possibility. We already knew that Ianto was deep and good at hiding secrets. But no, it wasn't that, either. (I am somewhat relieved, as I like Ianto, and wold like to believe that he was what he seemed: loving and loyal to Jack.)

Obviously all wrong - Ianto has deeper feelings for Jack than Jack has for him.

Clearly. Which, even though I didn't anticipate, I like on many levels. I also love a show where events and relationships are not predictable, but which still make satisfying and plausible stories.

I don't think Jack is callously using Ianto, but it's not an equal relationship and it's not love on Jack's part.

"Love" is such a malleable word. I think it's a loving relationship on Jack's part - an affectionate one. But not love such as he felt for Jack Harkness, for example. Not love deep in his psyche.

I think had the real JH not been destined to die and had there been a way for our Jack to stay with him - that could have been love for Jack

Brief and doomed though it was, I think it was love, all the more intense for being experienced on the cusp of Harkness' death and having so little time or opportunity for expression. Harkness and our Jack were really very much alike - Jack knew Harkness would understand about duty, just as Harkness understood that neither of them had a choice.

They were equals in courage, temperament and values. Our Jack has many more experiences and more suffering behind him.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I meant to say - as long as Rhys is in the picture Jack will never make a play for Gwen sexually - flirting, yes, but nothing more. That's just not the way he is. It was the same with Rose, as soon as he realized that there was something between her and the Doctor, Jack stopped putting the moves on her.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I certainly agree about Jack, Gwen and Rhys, at least as things currently stand.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

Jack is an ethical slut.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Hee! Exactly! Jack would go for a couple if both parties in the couple invited him into the relationship, but I just don't see current Jack, TW Jack, to come between a couple.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's it exactly. (And that's why I was dodging the Rose reference.) Particularly as Jack values love - he wouldn't jeopardize anyone's primary relationship, least of all Gwen's - because he does love Gwen and he knows that Rhys is best for her.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

I love that phrase crafting.

Captain Jack is beyond labels, and the effort that went to make him so is amazing. The writing of the series may have been up and down, but the writing of Jack was pretty good at steering him clear of sensible labels. (Well, perhaps inconsistent writing could have had that result too...)

And I love the icon too.
... too sexy for this song.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Captain Jack is beyond labels

True. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to try to describe him, though! He comes out rather well on close analysis. I keep changing my mind about what symbol/archetype/reference would best sum him up. In Doctor Who, "reluctant hero" might have been the phrase, but he's gone way beyond that. The role of "lonely god" is taken already.

The problem with calling him any kind of a slut - which on some levels might be literally true, but I'm not even sure of that any more - is that he goes so far beyond that. He's way too loving to his lovers for it to fit. But there's no easy one-word description that I can think of for "person who is so full of life and love that he has plenty to spare, including sexually, even though he's haunted by pain from his past, alienated, and frightened of his own role as hero". That makes him sound somewhat more paradoxical than he actually is.

Fun to contemplate.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

"person who is so full of life and love that he has plenty to spare, including sexually, even though he's haunted by pain from his past, alienated, and frightened of his own role as hero"

Woodrow Wilson Smith.
Except that Lazarus is not frightened of his role as a hero, just... doesn't think it's worth the hassle.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

Gah. That's probably cryptic.

I mean, that description of Captain Jack (ours) fits Heinlein's Lazarus Long pretty well. I wonder if it was RTD's goal, or it just... grew that way.

Fun to contemplate indeed.
Fun to watch too.
And oh so much fun to fantasize about!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Gah. That's probably cryptic.

That's okay. I can handle cryptic. If stuck i am perfectly capable of asking, "What are you talking about?"

I wonder if it was RTD's goal, or it just... grew that way.

RTd is a fanboy - it's one of his charms. Whether the influence was consicous or just part of his reasoning, or whether it's just a likely psychological path with an immortal hero.... hard to say. Fun to think about.

And oh so much fun to fantasize about!

Just try to stop me!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Woodrow Wilson Smith.

Hmm. Do you think Heinlein influenced Davies? That would hardly be surprising! Or that it's the inescapable gestalt of an immortal hero?

I pause to consider Methos, without coming to any conclusion.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

Thanks *g*, but I can't claim it as my own. There is a book on polyamorous relationships by that name (The Ethical Slut), by Dossie Easton. Point being that transgression of certain societal norms is NOT synonymous with behaving in an amoral, unethical fashion.

And the icon was gifted to me by the lovely falzalot. :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I should read "The Ethical Slut". It's certainly a good title.

Point being that transgression of certain societal norms is NOT synonymous with behaving in an amoral, unethical fashion.

And that's how societal norms change and adapt.

This is a great icon, too!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Captain Jack is beyond labels, and the effort that went to make him so is amazing.

The characterization of Jack has been quite complex and (though occasionally paradoxical) remarkably consistent - in theme, I mean, not quality. Or perhaps it's that the better writing has centred on Jack himself. There's significance to that which I'd like to point out to the producers. They have this wonderful character - stop being so distracted by the othes!

His sexuality has been handled particularly well, which leaves me thinking both thinking, "Well, of course, it's easy if you just write realistically instead of dealing in cliches and labels", and thinking, "But all the other TV shows get human relations askew, I can't believe this one doesn't."

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Nicely said. Yes.

I like them that way!

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

Anyone who doubts Johns acting ability, should look...REALLY LOOK...at the way he reacts to the pain of the shadow hitting him. The look on his face, damn near made me cry. It was one of the best 'pain acting' moments I think I've ever seen.

I'd love to see Bilis turn into a regular character in the next season.

Daleks might have been the villian that Jack was talking about killing his friend, though I can't quite remember how much he knew about them on the Gamestation. Though I do wholeheartedly beleive that they were much more then friends.

If that really happened when he was a child/teen, that could wholly explain his outlook on love. Don't get attached, and you won't feel the loss.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the way he reacts to the pain of the shadow hitting him.

My goodness yes. That was stunning. Totally convincing.

I'd love to see Bilis turn into a regular character in the next season.

I'd love that. He was wonderful as a figure supernatural ambiguity and evil. I loved his room full of clocks. I could see him as an information-source for Torchwood and threat, both at the same time.

I can't quite remember how much he knew about them on the Gamestation.

Unclear, at least to me.

I do wholeheartedly beleive that they were much more then friends.

So it wasn't just me getting that impression! good.

If that really happened when he was a child/teen, that could wholly explain his outlook on love. Don't get attached, and you won't feel the loss.

True. But he's a warm-hearted man, and can't help getting attached anyway, however much he tries not to.

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

exactly...the internal conflict of him wanting to love/be loved, but being terrified of having the same 'all his fault' scenerio happen all over again.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the internal conflict of him wanting to love/be loved

Yes. He can't help it. Even with liaisons as casual as a drunken romp with two executioners - he remembers it long afterwards with affection and respect. Can't help himself. Alienation didn't work for him either.

but being terrified of having the same 'all his fault' scenerio happen all over again.

Yes, and afraid of loss, and the pain of loss. Which makes his love of Captain Jack Harkness all the more heart-rending because before he even meets the man the one thing he knows about him is that he will die tomorrow. That's a pretty heavy burden for the heart. But Jack loves him anyway - love, I suppose, being the only thing he can offer him.

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

like he said to Tosh...he couldn't do anything for him.

that upset me to no end when he said it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

like he said to Tosh...he couldn't do anything for him.

He couldn't do anything to save his life or keep him alive. And even if he could have... so much of what Harkness was - a hero of his time - was tied up in his duty and his fate that it would have been wrong to change the situation. For all its pain, what he was, and what he was doing, were more important than his life.

But Jack did do something for him: he showed Harkness that he was loved by the person he most wanted to be loved by. Which was clearly important to Harkness. Under the circumstances, this was so close to impossible that it must have seemed miraculous.

[firko.livejournal.com]

I think that the Jack/Ianto relationship is the way it is because of Jack grappling with the conflict of being both Ianto's boss and lover. There is a very fine balancing act being done by Jack to maintain the position of leader and mentor while sleeping with Ianto, so even if Jack does love Ianto, I think he needs to keep a distance between them.

Interestingly I think the distinction is a bit fuzzier with regard to Jack & Gwen's relationship, although that comes from Jack's inherent love and respect for Gwen and her motivations. Also, I think they began their friendship and working relationsip on more of an equal footing rather than superior/subordinate.

I really liked Bilis too - it was so refreshing to have a genuinely creepy baddie! I'm all for him coming back if it's possible.

As for John's acting skills - he can really do the quiet subtle moments extraordinarily well. I think that if the material he has to work with is good, then he can meet the challenge. It's all down to direction and writing, hence the improvement over the series.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There is a very fine balancing act being done by Jack to maintain the position of leader and mentor while sleeping with Ianto, so even if Jack does love Ianto, I think he needs to keep a distance between them.

Good point. It also extrapolates to the others - not in terms of a physical relationship with them, but he loves them, and so he also has to keep perspective, distance and authority. Not something he's good at in the first place - he's basically the kind of person who naturally treats everyone as his equal. (And we know he likes to touch.)

I really liked Bilis too - it was so refreshing to have a genuinely creepy baddie!

Yes! And mysterious too. The antithesis of, say, Ed Morgan.

It's all down to direction and writing, hence the improvement over the series.

So very true!

[fangrrl-squees.livejournal.com]

Or to suspect that the creatures they were fighting might have been Daleks?

I don't think so, only because Daleks don't have a history of letting people go.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Daleks don't have a history of letting people go

True, though we've seen Daleks who weren't predictable.

If not Daleks, who? An enemy we've seen, or one we haven't?

I wonder if we'll find out. I suspect we will.