World Enough and Time

Isn't Giles wonderful? Love the man.

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dewline.livejournal.com

Some things stay with us...always. The passage of the decades and generations? These passages change not a damned nor blessed thing about that fact.

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So true.

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Boy you just HATE Xander, don't you? It surprises me because I consider him to be the heart of the show (among other things which I won't mention because I'm interested to see if you pick them up.)

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Xander as the heart of the show? Does he change? I don't see much heart there. I see Buffy as the heart of the show... or Giles.

I keep waiting, expecting to like Xander more, but every time he does something I really like (like buy the dress for Cordelia) he does something I hate (like pick on Wesley).

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Buffy is the soul of the show and Willow the brain, but Xander is and always has been the heart, flaws and all. I grant you it does take him a long time to come through the damage his family has done to him, but then I don't know any adult children of alcoholics who have shaken off that kind of abuse easily. That he's as open and generous and well-adjusted as he is is nothing short of a miracle. Buffy's own abandonment issues dog her for most of the series.

I don't know that you'll ever truly like him until you accept his flaws the way you seem to have done with the others. They're none of them paragons of either virtue or common sense. Giles does have the latter locked up but the former? Not hardly. He is the ultimate pragmatist who is capable of actions that make what the others do look like playground antics.

But pick on Wesley? LOL, Wesley was made to be picked on. He's as unfinished now as Xander ever was when the series began, but unlike Xander he takes himself far too seriously which makes him the perfect butt of jokes. Buffy ends up behaving as if he doesn't exist! The only reason to like Wesley at this point is because he's such a complete dweeb. It's not until he joins Angel that he comes into his own and learns to be the Wesley we all love so much.

You need to listen to Xander without judging him, listen to what he says and remember it. It's important to understanding who he is.

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I understand what you're saying and I'll try to see Xander that way. I find Giles' shortcomings much easier to forgive; and Spike's flaws are all virtues. I'm not looking for paragons of virtue, but Xander's gaucheries hit some of my trigger spots - in ways that Wesley does not. Among other things, I find Wesley funny. Xander is more likely to make me flinch when he jokes.

I'll try to listen better. You are eloquent on his behalf.

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Yes, Xander is gauche, but did you ever really know a teenage boy who wasn't? (Remember, he's fifteen when we meet him. Just because the actor looks a lot older doesn't change that.) He's raddled with hormones and would probably have fared better if he'd been raised by wolves rather than the family he had. They might have given him better social skills.

And he will continue to make mistakes in his own life. Big ones, damaging ones, but they can all be traced back to the pain and insecurity of his early years.

I wouldn't normally tell you this much except that I think you need to know a bit about where he's going: Listen to what he says about people and situations. He sees things. Truly sees. Perhaps with his heart, but the seeing is true, and it costs him dearly at the end of the series. Xander always understands what's happening before anyone else does. The others frequently don't heed him, and it costs them.

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Xander is gauche, but did you ever really know a teenage boy who wasn't?

Yes. Many. Not the majority, but many. And it's not just a matter of being gauche, but the ways in which he is gauche. Characters in a TV show are multifaceted but with many of them, I can extrapolate complete personalities, or simpy enjoy their flaws. Not so with Xander. Oz is also a teen-age boy - yes, an exceptionally mature one, but not unrealistically so. Percy, Jonathan, even some of the more villains characters seem more tolerable to me than Xander does. Perhaps if he looked fifteen when we met him, I'd find it easier to enjoy his manner.

Really, I appreciate your help with Xander, because I would like to enjoy him as I enjoy the other characters, and I realize that the problem is probably with my perspective and interpretation, rather than with the character himself.

I look forward to more.

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judymoe.livejournal.com

I want to add that, if you hate the "gratuitously rude and mean in spirit", then, aside from the pretty, you are going to positively loathe Spike. He's a lot like Xander in many ways, but in a prettier package with a British accent. He's also often a self-pitying whiner. But I love him, too.

If you really look, you'll notice that it's often Xander and Spike who see things others miss.

Perhaps I see Xander differently because I grew up with alcoholics, and I recognize the 'child of alcoholics' traits. I also spent loads of time in my youth with more male friends than female, and recognize the typical teen boy traits, and how much he's still above and beyond most teen boys in attitude and action.

And I loved the Mayor, and miss him. "Well, gosh!" LMAO!

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want to add that, if you hate the "gratuitously rude and mean in spirit", then, aside from the pretty, you are going to positively loathe Spike.

No, no, not possible. I adore Spike. It seems I can easily forgive in a vampire what I can't stand in a teen-age male.

He's a lot like Xander in many ways, but in a prettier package with a British accent.

So far, I don't see a Xander/Spike resemblance. At all. I'll try to keep this in mind.

you'll notice that it's often Xander and Spike who see things others miss.

Spike, yes. What has Xander seen (up to the end of third season) that others missed? Cordelia told him about her sudden poverty. I can't think of anything else offhand, but I might well be missing loads of things because I don't like Xander.

Perhaps I see Xander differently because I grew up with alcoholics, and I recognize the 'child of alcoholics' traits.

Maybe that's why I don't 'get' him.

Yeah, I'll miss the Mayor, too. And his dialogue. But I won't miss the snake.

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I love Spike, too, though I have to confess that all the Spike fangirls kind of spoiled him for me. Still, count me as a Spike apologist in that one instance from... sixth season? You know the one I mean, the one most people find unforgivable. Normally I would have, too, and I still don't think he's entirely without blame, but the escalation of the sexual violence isn't all on his side. It's a matter of degree. What makes me gag is the bot. Talk about an ugly side to his character...

Sometimes I just want to slap him and yell "Get over it!" LOL

I miss Mr. Trick. Loved that man. And the Mayor, yeah. I really dug him. It's funny to think about but there is no one in this series I hate. People do things I dislike but I still like them all very much, and love most of them.

Speaking of which, 7th season Buffy is just awesome in her awesomeness. She has finally dropped all that baggage. I am so digging her again.

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I love Spike, too, though I have to confess that all the Spike fangirls kind of spoiled him for me.

Oh dear. I'll try not to come across as a Spike fangirl. It might be a struggle.

Still, count me as a Spike apologist in that one instance from... sixth season? You know the one I mean

I haven't a clue. I'm just barely at season 4. Don't tell me, I'll get there eventually!

I miss Mr. Trick. Loved that man.

Oh, yes! He was magnificent. I tell myself it's probably good he didn't last long and didn't get stale, but still... Yeah, I miss him.

And the Mayor, yeah.

First of all, he was fun. Second, he really was creepy. Third and most important, he was one of the most original characters I've seen on TV - really not a 'type' as so many characters are - or if he was a type, it's that he was an amalgamation of types put together in an entirely new way.

It's funny to think about but there is no one in this series I hate.

I hated the Master in season 1. Generically I dislike all the demons/monsters/people in plastic face-masks, but I can overlook that in many individual instances. Most individual instances, in fact. I hated Joyce at first but soon came to like her - with lapses. She averages out okay. So far.

People do things I dislike but I still like them all very much, and love most of them.

Yes. Agreed. I also felt that in Firefly, where it was all easier for me. But then, I didn't have the Buffy background to know what to expect.

I look forward to 7th season.

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Ah Liz, I'm sorry. I kind of intended a couple of those comments for Judymoe because she and I have discussed certain issues that arise later in the series. I didn't mean to cause you any confusion. *hangs head*

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That's okay. I am very, very good at blinking and forgetting spoilers. A bit of mental magic that comes naturally. Besides, since I know some things that happen later on in Buffy, it's all a bit of a jigsaw puzzle or conceptual fog that I expect will make sense bit by bit as I get there.

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Hmm. I'll offer a different persepctive from

dargie here - Xander is taken to be the heart of the show because the show says in its own text that he is, and Xander is taken to be a person that sees things others miss because, again, the show says in the text that he is. I personally do not see those statements to be backed up by his canonical actions to any great degree.

Just on the matter of perception, there are other characters that are more perceptive and with many fewer blindspots.

Xander has his moments. Some of them are even great moments. But I will be very surprised indeed if you greatly change your general opinion of him by the end of the seven seasons.

ETA - I will try to remember to comment on the episode when I'm not on my parents' PC and on skip 125 of my flist...

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Xander is taken to be the heart of the show because the show says in its own text that he is, and Xander is taken to be a person that sees things others miss because, again, the show says in the text that he is.

Is that in episodes I haven't got to yet?

I always have the feeling - and I can't cite anything to back this up - that Whedon liked Xander particularly, and identified with him, and overrated him.

I personally do not see those statements to be backed up by his canonical actions to any great degree.

I certainly don't so far, but I'm keeping an open mind on this. So far he seems to me to be usually extraordinarily lacking in insight or empathy for his fellow person - unusually self-involved.

I will try to remember to comment on the episode when I'm not on my parents' PC and on skip 125 of my flist...

Yes, please! I look forward to it.

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Is that in episodes I haven't got to yet?

Definitely - they really are blatantly spelled out, you couldn't possibly have missed it if you'd seen them.

I always have the feeling - and I can't cite anything to back this up - that Whedon liked Xander particularly, and identified with him

Making you an extremely perspicacious person. I remember interviews from fairly early on where Whedon explicitly said that Xander was the closest to who he had been in school, only better looking.

So far he seems to me to be usually extraordinarily lacking in insight or empathy for his fellow person - unusually self-involved

Yup. I'm all in agreement there. But I have a whole rant on Xander's flaws that you have partially heard before (I'm pretty sure) and that is partially waiting on one or two particular episodes from much later on for illustration. Fans of Xander would no doubt passionately disagree with my perspective! Eh. I don't, on the whole, dislike him but I am very definitely not as fond of him as of the other characters.

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I remember interviews from fairly early on where Whedon explicitly said that Xander was the closest to who he had been in school, only better looking.

Yes. That goes a long way to explain Xander: Whedon dealt with issues of self-perception, insecurity, growing up and discovering the world through Xander's eyes. Sort of like Neil Simon, where so much of his work is autobiographical. Problem is, I think Whedon therefore projected too many of his own negative traits on Xander (the ego, the insecurity) and not the positive traits of intelligence, creativity, and insight. The result is too lopsided. Yes, teen males are often dorky, but he doesn't need to hammer the point so hard.

And from anything I've seen, Joss Whedon is loads better looking than Nicholas Brendon, but it's all a matter of aesthetic taste. The fact that I dislike Xander's looks doesn't help me to be tolerant of the character, but character is paramount - if I liked him, looks wouldn't matter. As they don't matter with Angel, for example.

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the Mayor: it's the first time we've seen him out of control, is it not? Loved that. Very powerful

Yes - that is one of my favourite aspects of his character, that he does so genuinely love Faith that he loses it. I love that it is that one bit of goodness left in him, the capacity for love, that ends up being his downfall.

Characters in Buffy don't die so easily, unless they are dusted vampires.

Heh. Yes, over 7 seasons Joss teaches us that lesson well!

I begin to understand why Whedon wants Xander in the show. It's so someone who can make the jokes that are gratuitously rude and mean in spirit, so the other characters don't have to

Actually, that is what Cordelia was for, and going forward a couple of about-to-be-regulars. Though 'mean in spirit' isn't quite right for them, more lacking understanding (in one case at least). Though I did think the inbreeding thing was funny and you have to admit that Wesley on the whole has not made a particularly impressive showing to the rest of the gang. I would also disagree that Cordelia is usually nicer than Xander - she is far more likely to be deliberately mean while I usually think Xander just doesn't think before he speaks. (Given my last comment, it's kind of bizarre to find I am defending Xander, but oh well...)

So Angel drinks Buffy's blood. I thought they'd never get to it

Hallelujah! I seem to remember reading/hearing somewhere that they deliberatly made it violent and brutal rather than in any way romantic. I have very confused feelings about the scene myself - on the one hand, part of what makes Buffy so great is that she does follow her heart and instincts and it completely fits with that for her to be so desperate to save Angel. On the other hand, as a warrior about to go into a massive battle it's also completely irresponsible of her. So part of me is going 'yay!' and part of me is going 'you idiot!'

Xander, who almost redeemed himself in "The Prom", blows it entirely, "Well, its just good to know that when the chips are down and things look grim you'll feed off the girl who *loves* you to save your own *ass*!" He never did like Angel, but this makes me want to punch him.

*punches Xander with you*

Meanwhile Buffy and Faith have an in-coma conversation

Oh man, I always forget this is the episode where that moment comes from - seriously, from now on, take note of anything that is said in Buffy's dream sequences. Some of it is laying in references for things to come way down the line.

I always wonder at this point how much of Faith's side of the conversation and the passing on of strength comes from her, her inner self that isn't just about violence and hate, and how much is something else using her likeness.

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I love that it is that one bit of goodness left in him, the capacity for love, that ends up being his downfall.

I think I see it more as - a bit of the humanity left in him. He has human weaknesses and virtues still, that time and ambition hasn't eradicated.

you have to admit that Wesley on the whole has not made a particularly impressive showing to the rest of the gang.

I understand Buffy's attitude to him; and Giles'. But they don't talk like Xander, either, they simply won't put up with nonsense. Willow doesn't say rude things about him. Cordelia does, but it's honesty, not spite.

I would also disagree that Cordelia is usually nicer than Xander - she is far more likely to be deliberately mean while I usually think Xander just doesn't think before he speaks.

If Xander says mean things without thinking about him, what does that say about his inner nature? Okay, it probably means he's hopelessly insecure (which he is) but it's still a form of ego that I don't like.

seriously, from now on, take note of anything that is said in Buffy's dream sequences. L

Okay. I love that!

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I understand Buffy's attitude to him; and Giles'. But they don't talk like Xander, either, they simply won't put up with nonsense

You know, I'm not so sure that this is fair to Xander. He is not the only person to be rude about Wesley. Examples:

WESLEY: I didn't get this job because of my looks.
BUFFY: I really really believe that.

BUFFY: I know this new guy's a dork

WESLEY: There you are!
BUFFY: Wow, speak of the really annoying person.

WESLEY: What can I do? I want to help.
BUFFY: Still got your plane ticket back to the mother country?

WESLEY: Negative thinking doesn't solve problems.
GILES: Berk.

BUFFY: I need someone to scream like a woman, I'll give you a call.

True, Xander has a more personal annoyance due to Cordelia liking Wesley, and Buffy and Giles tend to be more annoyed that he is obstructing them, but does the fact that their annoyance is from a different source excuse them?

If Xander says mean things without thinking about him, what does that say about his inner nature? Okay, it probably means he's hopelessly insecure

And thoughtless and doesn't look beyond his personal concerns and feelings. Which is certainly a problem.

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Oh, everyone's rude about Wesley. It's just that I like it when Buffy is rude about him, and not when Xander is rude about him. Partly it's their manner. Partly it's just that I like Buffy and don't like Xander, so I cut him no slack. I'm always very opinionated about what characters I do and don't like on TV shows. Sometimes my attitude changes in time, as it did with Owen in Torchwood; usually not.

With Wesley... I feel that Buffy and Giles have earned the right to criticize Wesley, so even when they do it, I can respect their right to do so. I don't think Xander has shown himself to have a high moral ground (or intelligence) from which to criticize Wesley.

thoughtless and doesn't look beyond his personal concerns and feelings.

Yup, that's exactly why I have a problem with him.

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Good humus jokes

I adore the hummus jokes. Oz is a star. I also like Buffy's defensiveness that she hasn't worked out the Mayor's weakness yet.

Reason #122 that I love Wesley

Very definitely classy. I think this is where Wesley really starts to grow up.

I like the way the story cuts between Buffy's strategy sessions and the Mayor briefing his vampires

I like his sadness that they won't get to hear his speech that he's been working on for 100 years.

Wesley kisses Cordelia, and says good-bye

Oh, that kiss! I just die laughing every single time, it is so brilliantly awkward and then they just give up and start talking like nothing happened. Hee!

I like as well that the plan involves the students that have come up before - there's Harmony, Larry, Jonathon, Percy... it's nice.

We were saying recently that women write romance about how people get together, men write romance about how they're torn apart.

Interesting. I'll have to think about that - I'm sure there are women who write tragic romances as well though.

I love the way the Mayor's speech is delivered. It's all the usual clichés, but given a new twist in the context.

I love the way they are all so dismayed that he's actually going to do the speech instead of just ascending.

So they do battle: students vs vampires. I liked that part. Good battle scene. Someone told me we see Harmony getting chomped by a vampire but I didn't catch that

It's when they are all rushing down the steps at the end - round about the time Jonathon stakes one I think. Did you catch Larry dying? I was sad about that.

Snyder's last stand. Woo. I love the way he is in character till the end.

Snyder had his own kind of class! And he continues the trend for Sunnydale High principals to get eaten.

They survived high school. I remember what that felt like. I think the horror of high school never quite leaves us

Too right.

And we're onto a new chapter. *trumpet fanfare*

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