Characters: love, hate, and the combination...

[fajrdrako]

From fannish5: Name 5 characters you initially found appealing, but eventually came to hate.

I don't think I've ever done that. I am generally consistent in my likes and dislikes. On initially encountering a character, I either like them or try to suspend judgement. Whatever it is, is what it is. Sometimes I've disliked a character and then come to like them - that happened with Angel on Buffy, with Owen on Torchwood - but that's rare.

Moreover, I simply don't watch shows if they have characters I hate. If there's something - anything - I hate about a show, I stop watching it.

There are characters whom I've loved, who turned into twits. I always blame the writers, and it's usually the sign of a show in decay. Examples:

1. Fox Mulder in X-Files. He found out what happened to his sister and he didn't care. That was only one atrocity in the writing of X-Files at the time, but it was the last straw. (Do not mention the death of Krycek to me. Just don't.)

2. Michael Garibaldi in Babylon 5. He went from being one of the coolest guys on television to being Dagwood.

3. Wash on Firefly. His senseless death turned me off the character.

4. Amanda on Highlander, who was cool with Macleod but annoying on her own show.

There is a fifth example of something entirely different, and I may have trouble articulating this one. The character is the Tenth Doctor on Doctor Who. Yes, the one played so beautifully by David Tennant. You know I love him, right? He's adorable, he's smart, funny, tragic, mercurial and generally utterly delightful.

But there's a 'but'. Ten has treated characters I love badly - and it's to their credit that they handled it well and carried on with their lives and their ambitions. I'm thinking of Jack and Martha, here, primarily. Also Rose. I love his "I'm the Doctor and I'm ruthless and cruel" scenes, but his real cruelties happen when he's not paying attention, and when he's at a loss about how to handle a situation emotionally. Or when he fails to find a good solution to a problem. I'm thinking of Donna, there. And River.

So... it isn't that I don't love Ten, I do. I love Ten far, far more than I probably should.

It's that I don't always like him.

Comments

[angelfireeast.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean about Ten. I love him but he treated people rather badly a lot of the time. And I agree about his cruelties happening at those times.

You love him but don't always like him. I think that sums up my feeling on Ten.

Again about Wash - it was so harsh and needless.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. And I actually enjoy my ambivalent feelings about Ten. Even when he angers me, it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the show - except maybe in "The Last of the Time Lords". And even that didn't ruin my pleasure in the show as a whole.

Wash's death didn't do anything but anger me. It was gratuitous.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

Sigh, that's my Ten. I'll never get over him telling Jack he was "wrong", and then taking advantage of his immortality for his own benefit time after time!

Also? The TARDIS loves Jack. It was mean to say anything else.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'll never get over him telling Jack he was "wrong", and then taking advantage of his immortality for his own benefit time after time!

So very true! And this was all because Jack bravely died for his sake. Not much gratitude there. I've have been so very much happier with Ten if only he'd said 'thank you' to Jack in "The Last of the Time Lords".

The TARDIS loves Jack. It was mean to say anything else.

The TARDIS adores Jack and he loves it in return. I suspect Ten might be just a little jealous there. Look at how he made a point in "Utopia" of pointing out *his* TARDIS's superiority over Jack's technology. Just a little reminiscent of Jack and John comparing wristband sizes.

[namastenancy.livejournal.com]

Amen to everything you say. What Carter to Fox was insane but I always wondered if the right turn on the story arc was because Mr. David was acting like an a&*hole, insisting on changes that ultimately ruined what was left of the show and, in general, acting like a prima donna. There can only be ONE and that one on X Files was Chris Carter, not David D.
Krycek - I am still in denial. NO No NO No..What a way to treat one of the most ambiguous and fascinating characters on the show. At least, we still have Fan Fic.
Wash - I refused to watch the last scene of Serenity because I had been spoiled for his death. About that time, I started having serious issues with Joss and his latest lip smacking, voyeuristic slop with Eliza Dusku has confirmed them.
Amanda - did we really need more proof that Liz Gracen couldn't hold down an entire show? I guess the looking good in skin tight outfits was enough for the producers. Boy, were they wrong. Whatever happened to the guy who was her sidekick? He seems to have disappeared. I'm just sorry that they didn't pair her off with the delightful and talented Valentine Pelka. If he could made thousands of fan girls fall for Kronos, imagine what he could have done with a more sympathetic part. OR if they'd given the spin off show to Peter Wingfield AND Valentine - now, that would have been fabulous but there goes another wasted opportunity.
Ten - I enjoyed the show but didn't care for a lot of the directions that it was going in. But, once a Dr. Who fan.....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always wondered if the right turn on the story arc was because Mr. David was acting like an a&*hole, insisting on changes that ultimately ruined what was left of the show and, in general, acting like a prima donna. There can only be ONE and that one on X Files was Chris Carter, not David D.

That might have been it. I never knew really what was behind it, but obviously something soured Carter on the project and he stopped caring about the integrity or the direction of the show; then it became not just diffuse, but boring. A mistake too, to think it could carry on without Mulder and Scully. As for Krycek - it's clear that Carter (or whatever writers were still carrying on) didn't know or care what a gem of a character they had there. Denial is the only possible response.

And thank goodness for fanfic!

Re Joss Whedon: I just spent a good part of an evening discussing What's Wrong with Joss Whedon (in relation to Dollhouse) with maaboroshi. "Voyeuristic slop" is a good description. I am becoming uneasy with his fascination with clever/attractive but victimized brain-damaged women. (Drusilla, Fred, River, Echo...)

Amanda - did we really need more proof that Liz Gracen couldn't hold down an entire show?

I think they failed to notice that Peter Wingfield was really the star of the show - at least where some of us were concerned.

I'm just sorry that they didn't pair her off with the delightful and talented Valentine Pelka. If he could made thousands of fan girls fall for Kronos, imagine what he could have done with a more sympathetic part.

I'd have been there in a minute. That would have been fantastic. I haven't seen Pelka in anything for ages - must look him up. He was wonderful. I loved him as Shelley in Rowing in the Wind, and before I saw it, I would have said he was miscast - not the right physical type at all. He acted so well, it didn't matter.

I looked him up: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0670893/ ... He's been in a few things, nothing I've seen since Queen of Swords, which was an awful show... Except for him and Peter Wingfield, who managed to give personalities to their roles.

[liliaeth]

hmm, don't know if this fits but...
when I was younger I used to like Willow, not in a fave char way, but in a 'she's ok way' only now that I'm older, and rewatch the show, I hate her more every single time I see her onscreen. Maybe it's knowing what she becomes, or just plain out her voice, but by now Willow has managed to become the one char I utterly despise on Buffy.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! I don't know what becomes of Willow (and don't tell me!) but I like her well enough - sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't much like Xander but I can tolerate him.

We'll see what I think a few seasons from now.

[liliaeth]

I love Xander, most of the time, but with me, a huge part of my Willow dislike comes from the actress. It's the cutesy mannerisms and the voice that annoys me the more I see of her. Well that and that she's Joss' favorite.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I didn't know Willow was Joss's favourite. Cutesy mannerisms and voice (and sometimes dialogue) is one of the things that kept me away from the show for a decade.

[liliaeth]

Oh she's his favorite alright. Just like Kaylee on Firefly or Illyria on Angel. Joss has a type that he likes. Just look at Dollhouse, it's what makes these characters so unlikeable.

Thing is, there's a difference between cute and cutesy, and Willow definitely fell into the cutesy trap that makes her intolerable. It's one of the main reasons I can't stand Alyson Hannigan's acting, her limited range. She basically has the same mannerisms regardless of the show or scenes she's in.

She's also his type of actress, small, petite, way too thin, waiflike...

SMG might not be perfect, but unlike AH, she actually has a full range of emotions to play with, which is something that AH lacks in my humble opinion.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have no particular problem with Alyson Hannigan or her acting; it's the combination of too many cute, thin, waiflike girls together that gives me a problem on Firefly. I liked Kaylee just fine, when she was the only one of that type.

On the other hand, seeing Echo, I'm less comfortable than I was with the fascination with cute, thin, young waiflike brain-damaged girls. It was amusing with Drusilla, intriguing with River, but now... cumulatively ... I'm not sure what it is.

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

"I don't think I've ever done that. I am generally consistent in my likes and dislikes"

I fully agree. There are a few characters whom I've disliked at first and ended up loving but not the other way around.

"I always blame the writers"

Of course! It's not the poor character's fault!

No, wait!

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

There is one character I liked at first: Apollo of the new BSG. But then he was turned into a cheater...

Re: No, wait!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I ever understood Lee Adama. I liked him more than not, and didn't really mind (or understand the reasons for) his promiscuity. Nor did I understand why he was suicidal for a while. I couldn't figure out if I was supposed to understand it, but was being obture, or if it was supposed to be all a big psychological mystery.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Whether I blame the character himself or the writers tends to depend on the character and the nature of the stories. Sometimes the one thing seems appropriate, sometimes the other.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

good point with Ten, but I think it's easy to forget that he's fallible (Jack), oblivious (Martha) and totally one track mind with Rose

and then he's alien and The Oncoming Storm...

but totally agree, not always likeable (but how boring would that be.. if a person was perfect they'd be boring!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

good point with Ten, but I think it's easy to forget that he's fallible (Jack), oblivious (Martha) and totally one track mind with Rose

Well, yes, that's the problem. Or the three problems. Whichever.

and then he's alien and The Oncoming Storm...

That, I love. Bring it on!

but totally agree, not always likeable (but how boring would that be.. if a person was perfect they'd be boring!)

I like most people, and I'm certainly not bored by likeability. The question is not "how perfect is he" so much as "can I tolerate those particular personality flaws?" Ten comes perilously close to my 'cannot forgive' limit sometimes, but he's yet to cross the line and I always end up forgiving him. Doesn't mean the flaws aren't there, or that they don't bother me. It means that he's worth it in the end.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

Ten comes perilously close to my 'cannot forgive' limit sometimes, but he's yet to cross the line and I always end up forgiving him ---
true, but I think that is kinda the point, we judge him by human standards... he's not human (he's seen his race die - killed them even in the Time war) He is physically different (2 hearts) and that is sometimes easy to forget as he 'looks' human.

Doesn't mean the flaws aren't there, or that they don't bother me. It means that he's worth it in the end.--- agree

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

we judge him by human standards...

Yes, well, those are the only standards I have. And since he interacts with humans on a human level, and consistently acts like a human, I think it's fair. There's no indication that morality or even personality is different for Gallifreyans than for humans. Of course I hold them to the same standard: that hurting friends is a bad thing to do, being unnecessarily cruel is a bad thing, being careless of sentient life is a bad thing. It can't be different for Gallifreyans. How could it?

I concede his personal problems, which are extremely interesting, especially in series 1.

And yes, he's worth it in the end. And I'm a sucker for his smile. So I can understand why Jack is, too.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

you're right, they are the only standards we have... (and let's not forget, he's written by humans...) so yeah human standards must apply to a large degree...but I think it's easier to forgive - for me anyway- if we take the 'he's not really human' element into account

and yeah, that smile... is wonderful

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The 'not really human' approach doesn't work for me at all. Whther he's human or whatever, he's either a basically good being, or not. I'd like to believe that he is. I don't mind his being troubled, flawed, dangerous, vengeful, angry, stormy, or even occasionally unreasonable. But he has to be decent and caring on some level; otherwise he's a Bad Alien, the kind we want to fight against, not a Good Alien like we want as champion of Earth. (And I won't rant now about how little good he did Earth when the Master took over; Martha states his case well enough then.)

Yeah, my standards for a hero are pretty high. Usually he meets them. Which is why it jars when he fails. I like the failures in that I don't want unflawed heroes; but it can be problematic.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

I think The Doctor is complicated - feels time, feels the rotation of the earth as he explained to Rose... so whilst he is basically good (I think so anyway), he's lived 900 years, been running for most of them and is just a mess - I mean, I don't get him falling in love with a 19 year old shop girl for a start!

Re Master: I think the Doctor was to a degree paralysed by his desire NOT to be the last of his own kind, but yeah, Martha definitely saved the world!

Jack and The Doctor are both complicated (Jack's no angel) and flawed but I think that's why I love them because nobody is flawless.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

No, nobody is flawless. And I've far from given up on the Doctor. Just haven't forgiven him for a few things.

[hab318princess.livejournal.com]

yeah, maybe I'm too forgiving

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe; but we all have different criteria for our judgments.

[torchwood334.livejournal.com]

I agree and I really wasn't happy with the death of Wash tragic. I have to say I love your posts they are awesome!!! Keep it up =)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have to say I love your posts they are awesome!

Aww, you silver-tongued devil, I love hearing that. You made my day! [g]

[torchwood334.livejournal.com]

Yeah I love your post I very much enjoy reading them =) Just keep them coming I don't get to go on everyday but I try.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'll do my best!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

So eloquent you are. And you put me in mind of a beautifully-written passage from Ursula K. LeGuin's The Farthest Shore, one of my favorite books of all time. A character whom we have lately been introduced to has embarked on a long journey by small boat with the great Wizard Sparrowhawk, who has lived through horrible trials and is now (he knows) coming upon the final hard choices of his life, and something happens (forget just what) to make Sparrowhawk brood and ruminate. He sits at the tiller and does this, staring off at nothing, his countenance cloudy and his aura unapproachable, and the young character "busied himself with small tasks at the bow of the boat, as it would have been too hard to cross that dark glance..." and it was then that the young man found that his hero was human, and while this dark mood was hard to bear, "it did not lessen his love for Sparrowhawk, although it lessened liking somewhat."

Lovely concept. You have captured it again.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's very flattering to be compared to Ursula LeGiun. I admire her writing, too.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Well, my dear, you don't know (or have forgotten) that I consider you and Ursula K. LeGuin as the two writers better than I am. I also found out that she is the same age as my mother. I go to her website just to look at her picture, sometimes. Hoping that she'll last forever. Which none of us do.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Her books will last forever. Good enough.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

They should have been included on Voyager, if you ask me. hee

DW '09 Promo Pics

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Check them out:
http://scifipulse.net/?p=6679

Re: DW '09 Promo Pics

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Very cool! Thanks for the link.

Re: DW '09 Promo Pics

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I posted more pics with some welcome plot follow-up to Family of Blood. :)

Re: DW '09 Promo Pics

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, good!