Tochwood: character-defining moments in series two...

[fajrdrako]

Two days ago, theohsocurlyone asked on torch_wood what our top five favourite moments of series 2 Torchwood were. My answer is here.

On considering my answer, I was reminded that I much preferred series 1, for many reasons. Series 2 was, on average, better written, but I liked the characterization of series 1 better. Tosh pined less. Owen, though often annoying, was fascinating and consistent, and had a tight, coherent, consistent characterization arc (if I may call it that) with a resolution that was one of the strongest moments of the show. Gwen was fun, Suzie was scary, and Ianto - well, he had a nice hero's journey of his own, ending with a kiss in Jack's arms. Fairy-tale ending, that, followed by the cliffhanger of Jack's disappearance.

Not to say series two didn't have its good points, inconsistent though it was. There were some great moments and some tight episodes. One interesting thing about the replies to theohsocurlyone's question is how many fans were coming up with the same answers. The Jack/John encounter at the beginning of "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", the Martha/Ianto conversation in "Reset", the pterodactyl capture in "Fragments", Adam messing with Ianto's mind (and Gareth David-Lloyd's wonderful acting there), the deaths of Tosh and Owen, the hothouse scene.... Some of these are favourites of mine, some not. The deaths of Tosh and Owen: too sad to be a favourite scene for me, though I love it that Tosh died in Jack's arms.

Let me pick, rather randomly, a favourite character-defining moment for each of the characters.

• Rhys, excited with his discovery of Torchwood at the end of "Meat"
  
• PC Andy, championing lost causes in "Adrift"
  
• Ianto with a hockey stick in "Dead Man Walking" (almost as iconic as a stopwatch!)
  
• Tosh asking Jack about her mother's welfare when he gets her out of the UNIT cell in "Fragments"
  
• Owen in "Meat": "Change of plan."
  
• Gwen takes charge at the Police Station in "Exit Wounds".
  
• Jack in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang": "I came back for you. All of you." The same leadership/caring is shown in "Adam", in the boardroom scene, but not expressed so succinctly.

Each of these moments indicates something about the character's sense of caring, and what they care about, and how they handle it.

Episodes I most loved in series 2:

5. "Reset". Because of Martha, who was just delightful here; and her relationship with Jack; and all the scenes with the evil Doctor; and Torchwood's concern over the captive aliens.

4. "Fragments". Four strong stories illustrating their backgrounds, with surprises in each. Owen's was the most surprising, almost to the point of being disorienting. Toshiko's story was the best. Ianto's story was fun. I wonder what Suzie's story would have been. And each story was also Jack's story, how and why he found and chose his team.

3. "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", because of Captain John. He livened things up, stirred them around, and in the end was more sinned against than sinning.

2. "Adam". One of the best villains ever; and an interesting study of identity. Jack: "Our memories define us." His total faith in Ianto. His protectiveness of his team. His distress over Gray and his own traumatic memories.

1. "Meat". So much I love in this story, and it's a nice, structural/thematic whole about what we owe to other living beings - not just the space whale, but Rhys and his relationship with Gwen and his work and with Torchwood; Ianto, at his action-hero best; the hostage-taking of Rhys and Ianto; Gwen's certainty of Rhys's honesty; her confrontation with Jack about retconning Rhys; Jack's anguish at the death of the alien; I loved all of it.

Things I didn't like in series two:

1. General lack of cohesiveness. The bookend-story of Captain John and Gray might have worked to give it structure if "Exit Wounds" hadn't been a bit of a mess itself, structure-wise. The whole season needed more coherence. I like a variation in tone and genre, but we didn't get that so much as mosaic freefall of connected ideas.
   
   
2. Jack's characterization in "A Day in the Death", which seemed to me to be unexplained, unlike Jack, and at odds with what we saw in "Dead Man Walking". There are other episodes in which Jack's actions and motives are simply unexplained, and we don't have enough clues to guess what he was thinking. Why wouldn't he tell Gwen about Flat Holm in "Adrift"? The whole story hinged on her ignorance, and I couldn't see adequate reason for Jack's refusal to tell her. He trusts her implicitly in other episodes. He accepts her knowledge at the end of the episode. It's not like him to be stubborn for the sake of stubbornness - though of course, anyone can do that. I liked the episode, but too much of the plot depended on unexplained choices on Jack's part.
   
   I love it, of course, that Jack makes his efforts to save and help the Rift victims, and keep the situation quiet. Being protective and secretive at the same time is what Jack is all about.
   
   
3. The specific characterization of Owen. In series 1 he had an edge, a wild-boy self-destructive carelessness to him that made him both annoying and riveting. In series 2, without that edge, he was a lost soul - alive or dead. I liked him better as a loose cannon than as a victim of circumcstances.
   
   
4. Tosh pined too much. Not self-pityingly, thank goodness, but episode after episode, all she had to deal with was loss. Tommy, her mother, her freedom, Owen. She's cute, sexy, brave, smart, strong and resourceful, and nothing in her life went right.
   
   
5. I'd have liked a few more successes, a but less sense of tragedy. There was a sad character death in almost every episode: Beth, Tommy, the space whale, the whole collection of nameless aliens in "Reset", Owen (on an ongoing basis), Jonah, Katie, Tosh, Owen, and Gray. It was at times a little too... predicable. Thank goodness the cute little boy in "From Out of the Rain" survived. Thank goodness Captain John had a sense of humour and a great line of banter.

Comments

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

I think you make a lot of really astute points, here. There is truth to what you say.

On an instinctive level, I have thought the first series was much better than the second, but I couldn't put it into words and thoughts quite like you have done. {Although, I have said many times that the arc of Owen's story in series one is remarkable, even brilliant storytelling. Nothing quite like it in series 2.)

Bravo!

[Disclaimer: With all of its' faults, I would rather watch Torchwood than anything else on television--(with the small exception of the first 9 episodes of Deadwood.) Somehow, Torchwood's mix of witty, sometimes silly, banter, character development and inter-character chemistry, and the ponderous existential nature of many of its' storylines--not to mention to standout inclusion of open sexuality, is compelling to watch over and over again. But, maybe that's just me;)]

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have thought the first series was much better than the second, but I couldn't put it into words and thoughts quite like you have done.

There are still thoughts to sort out, but yes, on the whole, series 1 had stronger writing and more impact - even though it had terrible flaws and mixed quality.

the arc of Owen's story in series one is remarkable, even brilliant storytelling. Nothing quite like it in series 2.

So very true. Owen, rather than being resolved, was all over the place. I liked the theme of his living death, but was disappointed that it didn't go anywhere - except to a real death. Great moments, but left me thinking, "Huh?" I don't understand, for example, why he was the living dead for a while - was it because of something in his life, or because of the glove, or because of Death's choice, or - ? Why was he King of the Weevils?

Disclaimer: With all of its' faults, I would rather watch Torchwood than anything else on television--

Hee - yes. And I'd rather talk about it than anything else on television, warts and all!

Somehow, Torchwood's mix of witty, sometimes silly, banter, character development and inter-character chemistry, and the ponderous existential nature of many of its storylines--not to mention to standout inclusion of open sexuality, is compelling to watch over and over again. But, maybe that's just me;

I agree with every word, and have to just say, "me too". Compelling, though-provoking, heartrending, and extremely entertaining.

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

"why he was the living dead for a while - was it because of something in his life, or because of the glove, or because of Death's choice, or - ? Why was he King of the Weevils?"

Indeed! Those were original plot points, but I don't think either one was accurately explained, truly explored, as they deserved to be, or were satisfactorily resolved.

I had an amazing creative writing teacher years back who taught us to always think about the "Ur" text--the origin of the narrative--that would help you find your resolution. For instance, one of my stories had a narrative that mirrored Mort D'Arthur, but contemporary and realistic. It was so helpful to have had that pointed out to me, by my teacher. Even though, I didn't know anything about that story, then, culturally it had probably seeped into my unconscious and helped to construct my narrative. Once, I studied the narrative of Mort D'Arthur, I could then see my plot options more clearly. They don't necessarily have to follow the Ur text, but your choices can resonate with it. It rends the story more thought out, deeper.

It struck me with the King of the Weevil and Living Dead stories that they didn't discover the Ur text, and hence could not allow them to resonate.

"I'd rather talk about it than anything else on television..."

Yes! My one close friend who has watched TW, is really sick of me constantly wanting to analyze, quote from, and generally rehash this show. I've begun to start conversations without even indicating that I am talking about TW, and he just looks at me like "Again!"

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Those were original plot points, but I don't think either one was accurately explained, truly explored, as they deserved to be, or were satisfactorily resolved.

It would have been easy to set it up as something really strong. As it was, I was left wondering why. Why that situation? Why Owen?

It struck me with the King of the Weevil and Living Dead stories that they didn't discover the Ur text, and hence could not allow them to resonate.

Good explanation. They were telling a myth, but weren't sure what myth it was, so it had no point of origin and no resolution. Seems to me there is an ur-text out there, something that would pull it all together - if only I could think of it. It wasn't given us by the Torchwood writers and isn't likely to be given now.

The result is the kind of story where "this happens and then this happens and then this..." but it isn't very satisfying; it's hard to take meaning from it when meaning hasn't been given.

My one close friend who has watched TW, is really sick of me constantly wanting to analyze, quote from, and generally rehash this show.

I try not to do that much, but sometimes a person can't help it. Thank goodness for other fans on LJ - people like you keep me sane!

(As sane as I want to be, anyway!)

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

Yes! I am so greatful for LJ fans. When I heard rumors about LJ shutting, down last week or so, I got really down. It showed me how much this means to me.

It seems like LJ will be around for a while--which is a relief.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It seems like LJ will be around for a while--which is a relief.

Yes. I am happy to hear it. And if we should ever lose it, there are other forums. But this is a spectacularly good one in various ways.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of your points, especially the point about series 2 losing some of the edge that we had in series 1, although series 2 was better written overall and we had a better senes of the team actually caring about one another.

Exit Wounds was a pretty bad final in my view, although it did have some strong moments, most notably the deaths of Owen and Tosh which didn't fail to move me. For an episode that was meant to be about Jack's brother Gray, I could have done with less of Captain John, even though he's a fun character to have around.

Tosh was definately under-used in series 2 and spent too much time appearing to pine for Owen. Through no fault of the actress herself, I think the writers found it fairly easy to make the decision to kill her off in Exit Wounds because it was almost as if they didn't know what to do with her character much of the time. It's also a shame that Ianto didn't get to be the focus of an episode in series 2 because it left his overall story as being about his relationship with Jack, his one-liners and very little else. I hope to see Ianto developed a lot more in series 3.

Overall I really liked series 2 but I did miss some of the edginess that series 1 had.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

although series 2 was better written overall and we had a better senes of the team actually caring about one another.

It was nice to see the teamwork, and the greater trust of Jack. While, in return, he trusted them more. Nice building on the crisis that happened in "End of Days" and his departure, I think.

For an episode that was meant to be about Jack's brother Gray, I could have done with less of Captain John, even though he's a fun character to have around.

The balance was off. If it was a bout Gray, we saw too much of John. If it was about John, we didn't get enough of a resolution - and saw too much of Gray.

Tosh was definately under-used in series 2 and spent too much time appearing to pine for Owen.

Yup. She had flashes of brilliance - in "Fragments" and "Exit Wounds", mostly. I wanted to see more action!Tosh, and more decision-making on her part. Yes, a focus on Ianto and his life would have been wonderful.

Overall I really liked series 2 but I did miss some of the edginess that series 1 had.

Yup. That's the bottom line. One of these days I'll post about the things I liked most in series 1, where, on the whole, I found the characters more coherent and believable - even though series 2 was slightly better written overall. But not as much better written as I'd hoped and expected.

[kaimu-art.livejournal.com]

I am actually finding myself in agreement with you mostly in preferring series 1 to 2. As individual episodes I think series 2 had more 'good episodes', but as a whole characterization I thought series 1 was better.

There are other episodes in which Jack's actions and motives are simply unexplained, and we don't have enough clues to guess what he was thinking.

Thank you, I thought I was the only one that thought this. Even though Jack was mysterious in series 1, for some reason I felt like I understood him more back then. One thing I didn't like about series 2 was there wasn't a real Jack-centric episode. The Gray arc took a second seat to Tosh and Owen in "Exit Wounds", even "Adam" was just as much about the team as it was about Jack. There wasn't an episode that really gave as a good glimpse into what he was thinking and what he felt the way "Captain Jack Harkness" is series 1 did.

Tosh pined too much.
Dear gods yes! It's like they decided she was going to die so they had to take everyone away from her, and give her nothing in return. I really wished there was more Jack-Tosh moments in series 2 like we saw in CJH. Or just let her have a relationship/friendship with someone that was alive and around her and was going to stick around.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As individual episodes I think series 2 had more 'good episodes'

I'd have to think about that. My very favourite episodes were in series 1 - "Captain Jack Harkness", "Out of Time", "Everything Changes", "Cyberwoman", "Combat" - series 2 just didn't quite match up for me, though certain episodes were very well written. Individual episodes were good, some scenes were brilliant, but for 'good episodes' I still think series 1 wins.

One thing I didn't like about series 2 was there wasn't a real Jack-centric episode.

True. He was there, but got neither individual focus nor further insight.

It's like they decided she was going to die so they had to take everyone away from her, and give her nothing in return.

She had moments of technological triumph, but no personal triumph, and her character didn't develop at all. Her greatest moment was her tragic death - that wasn't what I wanted. She didn't even get to kick ass like Ianto did in "Meat"!

I would have liked to have seen more of her friendship with Jack, certainly. As it is, I am forced to fall back on my Jack/Tosh relationship fantasies.

[kaimu-art.livejournal.com]

To me while there were episodes I loved in series 1 (Out of Time is my favorite time-displacement drama), there are also episodes that I really had a hard time not turning off the TV midway through.
Where as Series 2, even if I wasn't particularly fond of an episode it never went to where I wanted to stop watching. So overall I'd say series 2 had more 'good episodes, but not necessarily stronger since the good series 2 episodes never hit the high that series 1 did (Fragments comes close, but still falls short).

She didn't even get to kick ass like Ianto did in "Meat"!
Fragments did have some awesome Tosh moments, but what annoys me is Tosh's kick-ass superhero-ness happened in the past, and she was then punished for it. I certainly loved her segment and Naoko Mori did a wonderful job portraying Tosh's despair, but it felt too little, too late.

As it is, I am forced to fall back on my Jack/Tosh relationship fantasies.
I do as well, especially the time period before Owen joined the team, and Tosh slowly learning to trust Jack, and Jack having to navigate being a leader, instead of as a second-in-command, to Tosh.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Where as Series 2, even if I wasn't particularly fond of an episode it never went to where I wanted to stop watching.

Neither series was ever that bad for me. In some ways I just loved it all. My least favourite episodes are all in series 2 (e.g., "Dead Man Walking", "A Day in the Death"), and my favourites are all in series 1 ("Out of Time", "Captain Jack Harkness"). But there are characters, ideas, stories in series 2 that I adore, too, so it isn't such a wide divide.

what annoys me is Tosh's kick-ass superhero-ness happened in the past, and she was then punished for it.

I loved her action moments in "Countrycide" and "Combat". Series 2 didn't have nearly enough of that. I wanted her to fight back against Captain John, and, in general, do more rescuing and less being rescued.

I certainly loved her segment and Naoko Mori did a wonderful job portraying Tosh's despair, but it felt too little, too late.

I still love Tosh. I just loved her more in series 1, where she had more to do. Even her sad love affair there (with Mary) was more dramatic than her sad love affair with Tommy.

I do as well, especially the time period before Owen joined the team

Loved their meeting in "Fragments". I'd love to read/write more about Tosh and the effect she must have had on Torchwood - Jack no longer had to do all the high-tech stuff himself, and she was clearly better at it than he was. I wonder how she got along with Suzie?

[kaimu-art.livejournal.com]

I'd love to read/write more about Tosh and the effect she must have had on Torchwood

I would love to read that! Even though Gwen was the catalyst that got Jack caring again, I'm sure Tosh, Owen, Suzie, and even Ianto, were slowly chipping away at Jack hardening himself against the world. Gwen (and Suzie's death) was sort of what woke him up to it.

I wonder how she got along with Suzie?
Hmm... from TKKS I got the feeling that they were very professional with each other, and Tosh later felt guilty that she couldn't reach out to her. I can see them bonding over alien tech, and having one of those 'work-friendships' with her, or at least she thought she did. I wonder if she knew about Owen and Suzie though.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wonder if she knew about Owen and Suzie though.

If Tosh knew, or suspected, about Suzie and Owen... she might have withdrawn out of jealousy or hurt, and have not paid much attention to Suzie.

Since I don't like the Tosh/Owen relationship, I like to focus on the friendship or love between Tosh and Jack. I think he was good for her.

[cweb.livejournal.com]

Why wouldn't he tell Gwen about Flat Holm in "Adrift"? The whole story hinged on her ignorance, and I couldn't see adequate reason for Jack's refusal to tell her. He trusts her implicitly in other episodes. He accepts her knowledge at the end of the episode. It's not like him to be stubborn for the sake of stubbornness - though of course, anyone can do that. I liked the episode, but too much of the plot depended on unexplained choices on Jack's part.
*********
I assumed he was being protective (some things you are better off not knowing). I think her reaction would have been vastly different if she'd met Jonah during his 23 hour downswing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I assumed he was being protective (some things you are better off not knowing).

That's an explanation, and I wish they'd said so. It implies he thinks Ianto is emotionally stronger than Gwen - unless Ianto found out by accident or happenstance? Whatever the explanation, I just wish they'd given it to us!

I think her reaction would have been vastly different if she'd met Jonah during his 23 hour downswing.

That's so very true.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Regarding Adrift, that is a very strong episode, not least due to the wonderful performance of Ruth Jones and the chap who played older Jonah. I didn't have a problem at all with the secret thing. Clearly Tosh didn't know either, and maybe not Owen. Jack keeping secrets is very in character. Ianto knowing everything is also in character.

I think S2 is much stronger, although not every single episode. When recommending to friends who aren't fannish types, I always say to go for S2. That's why the ratings were better, and the reviews much better as well. I love all of it, both seasons, but really only my friends who are equally sci fi fans of long standing feel the same, the others found S2 much more accessible. I think the writing is a lot better in S2, it found a sense of humour, which it really needed.

Ianto was desperately underwritten in S1, they are repeating it now on cable, and I keep noticing how underused he was, it was so nice for him to have so much more in S2, and the strengthening of the relationship as well. Also good to have more of Rhys as well.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack keeping secrets is very in character. Ianto knowing everything is also in character.

True enough, but Jack has a history of confiding in Gwen even when he hasn't confided in the others. Ianto says he doesn't know much about Jack. Is he lying? Time will tell.

When recommending to friends who aren't fannish types, I always say to go for S2.

Series 2 is certainly more accessible; I have never been a fan of accessibility for the sake accessibility. I like things that are more complex and dramatic. Which is probably why I don't like the same TV and movies most other people seem to like....

I don't think series 2 is stronger. It doesn't have some of the strengths that series 1 has, though it is smoother and more artfully crafted. Its seams and flaws don't show as clearly.

And yes, I love it too, both seasons, and the books, and the comic book, and the fanfic, and the magazine, and the radio show... and I leaving anything out? I even love the episodes I don't like. I'm hopeless.

Ianto was desperately underwritten in S1

That was a pity. I think he was still underwritten and underused in series 2, as was Tosh.

Also good to have more of Rhys as well.

Absolutely! Wonderful Rhys.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Yes absolutely Ianto was still underused in S2, but much less so. He was still number 5 cast wise, and I hate to say it, but I'm very glad that he will now be number 3. (Yes I liked Owen and Tosh, but you know, that is the upside..) I think seeing Jack confide in Gwen may well just be the fact that they were the leads, esp in S1, in S2 we did see him confide in Ianto, such as TTLM, and FOOTR.

I also find myself rewatching episodes I don't care for. I'm not saying that being accessible is the most important thing, but it felt easier to love it, I didn't have to convince my friends who had given up to persevere, which happened in S!. I convinced them all back in S2, and they loved it and stayed. I would say with the exception of a couple of friends who are like me in nerdy fannishness, most people I know who like it now, haven't seen all of S1, a couple are catching up with it on cable.

I feel very confident in saying that I think S2 is better than DW S4, I wouldn't argue that for S1, with S1 I find myself saying, well yes, but I like it....I guess the BBC really have to think of ratings and appealing to the most people, I feel proud of what they did with it, yes I am that pathetic!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He was still number 5 cast wise

Which is a pity, as it leaves me still unsure what to make of him.

Yes I liked Owen and Tosh, but you know, that is the upside..

I too liked Tosh and Owen, but I was actually glad when they died - even though I cried as much as anyone during the episode. But they both got to be heroic, and I was fed up with a lot of what was happening to them plotwise - dead!Owen had nowhere to go and Tosh wasn't developing and I hated the unrequited love theme between them, mainly because Tosh seemed so lacking in backbone.

I convinced them all back in S2, and they loved it and stayed.

Yay! Good for you!

Yes, I understand the BBC's need and desire for ratings, and I can live with that. I do think that there's something a little more bland about series 2, and I'm hoping that tighter writing in series 3 will overcome the problems.

("More bland" is still a relative thing - in absolute terms, series 2 wasn't bland at all.)

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I agree with all those points, except Ianto was my favourite from the very first episode, despite not seeing much of him, so I just know I want to see more. I was bought into the show by loving Jack in DW S1, and still do love him, I love them together. It will be interesting to see how Ianto works in S3, getting more of his own story as it were..

Just wanted to say I didn't mean to sound pompous, that's the problem with this comment thing, you can never convey a tone in writing. I just meant that S2 drew the viewers in, so my friends who gave up first time round, didn't need any convincing to stay the second. KKBB was such a stronger beginning than the S1 opener, there is no comparison. Sleeper was also much better than that dreadful sex alien ep (that one I really don't like but of course re watch if it's on!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I agree with all those points, except Ianto was my favourite from the very first episode, despite not seeing much of him

I never know what to make of Ianto. In some ways I love him, in some ways I am frustrated by him. He is so crystal-clear to so many fans - but not me! He's delightful but I understand him and 'know' him least. Which in some ways makes him all the more fun to write.

I too came to the show with my love of Captain Jack from Doctor Who, and that has stayed with me. I love all of the team (with special dispensation for Owen) but I'm sorry to say that Ianto seems the least sexy to me. Which is okay, and not really a detriment. Just a bit of a shame.

It will be interesting to see how Ianto works in S3, getting more of his own story as it were..

That will be so interesting to see!

that's the problem with this comment thing, you can never convey a tone in writing

Always true!

KKBB was such a stronger beginning than the S1 opener, there is no comparison.

It was catchier, yes... But not terribly coherent compared to "Everything Changes". It's great strength was the dialogue and acting of James Marsters.

Sleeper was also much better than that dreadful sex alien ep

Hey, I loved the sex alien episode! Why didn't you like it? I thought it was terrific in many, many ways. (It had The Hand. I loved the Hand.) Not a top favourite but it's definitely one I liked and admired.

I do agree that "Sleeper" was a wonderful episode, but so sad I can barely stand to watch it again. (Which probably means I should.) I also... not sure how to articulate this or understand it... Don't like Ianto as much in that episode as I usually do. Not sure why. Must watch again.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Oh I think the sex alien one is a bit cheap and tacky, I just find it very uncomfortable to watch, and I'm not keen on the writing. I find Gwen very irritating in it as well, but I often do (not always, it depends on the episode) The scene at the table when she tells them off, and Jack's response, makes me cringe, bad acting and writing.

I think KKBB is a very strong start, mainly for the pace and the humour. I love the whole rehab conversation and all the exposition at the beginning. The office scene with Jack and Ianto just shows how well they can both act in sub text, and is very well written. The only bit I actively hate is Gwen showing the engagement ring, it makes me cringe and the acting is painfully bad. (in fact that and the scene I mention above are I guess the two most cringeworthy moments in the whole thing for me, although Martha kissing Jack comes close)

Ianto isn't used a lot in Sleeper, mainly for his deadpanning, but he is very funny in it, and I like him teasing Owen toward the end, about the phones and about Owen's offer of sex.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think the sex alien one is a bit cheap and tacky

She is herself, as a character, same as Toshiko's Mary - both alien sex predators. I don't find the episode tacky in the least - but maybe the difference in our perspective comes from our attitudes to Gwen, since I love her very much indeed and there's a lot of focus on her in this one. I consider that a bonus.

I love watching it, I like the writing in it, the structure (as usual) leaves something to be desires, but it has bits I totally love. Like Jack's "throttling the staff" line, and Gwen's willingness to die to save Carys. Besides, I like the sex scenes in it. Shameless, me.

The scene at the table when she tells them off, and Jack's response, makes me cringe, bad acting and writing.

Not my favourite bit, no, but it doesn't put me off. I love the scene where they're eating Chinese and speculating on Jack's sexual orientation.

I like the exposition at the beginning of "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" too. I don't like the Jack/Ianto office scene at all - it's one that makes me cringe; Gwen's engagement ring scene is better but only by a margin. Martha kissing Jack is cringeworthy too, for other reasons. (Nor do I understand why Jack went from loving her in "Reset" to being relatively cold to her in "A Day in the Death". Echoes his relationship with Owen in those episodes, come to think of it. Presumably the writer of "Reset" likes a warm and open Jack, the writer of ADITD likes a cold and remote Jack. Take your pick!

I find Ianto kind of... unsympathetic, for want of a better word... in "Sleeper". I don't like him joking about torture, though I do love it when he's reassuring Jack that he seemed suitably nasty when making his threats.

And Owen's orgy comment, with Ianto's reply, is delightful.

I still find that episode incredibly depressing. Tense, though. I totally loved Beth. And I love Gwen in that one, too.

(Note to self: watch it again.)

[namastenancy.livejournal.com]

Why Owen? I think that the writers knew that Burn Gorman was one of the strongest actors in the series and wanted to try out all their skills on making him jump through hoops. But because he had such potential, mostly unrealized, they went all over the place - just like series II did.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

But the one place series 1 of Torchwood was consistent and built momentum was in the story of Owen. It was all over the place in every other aspect, but Owen's story made a lot of psychological sense - despite the fact that we didn't know his origin story. It was in series 2 that he was all over the place.

And you know what? I think I liked him better when he was a right bastard! The new, improved Owen seemed comparatively bland.

Burn Gorman is certainly a strong actor. I still don't like him much, but I admire his skills. I wonder what we'll see him in next.

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

I sort of hate to ask this, because I think it will make me angry (and you won't like me when I'm angry), but does anyone know the actual reason Burn and Naoko(sp) left the show?

I've heard a lot of speculation posited as fact, and I want to know the actual reason. Did the actors want to get on with their careers, was it important to the storyline, did the fans have an impact on it?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

does anyone know the actual reason Burn and Naoko(sp) left the show?

I have no idea. I'd be interested to know. Something I heard Naoko Mori say in an interview - and I don't recall where - implied that it came as a surprise to her when she got the script in which Toshiko was killed, so it doesn't sound as if it was by her request.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the ongoing theme throughout the entire series was betrayal, loss, and forgiveness, and this was written consistently throughout

Absolutely true. Jack was depressed and floundering, his second-in-command was crazy, and things were falling apart. The coming of Gwen reminded Jack of his responsibilities and he started getting his act together. Different influences tore them apart - Ianto's Cyberwoman, the affair between Gwen and Owen, and so on - but in the end we had a crisis and resolution and they became a cohesive team with a lot of caring for each other.

the writers approach to both the characters as individuals and the canon ships was also inconsistent-- ...and it usually doesn't make sense.

That absolutely is the problem. Different writers seemed to have different notions as to what the characters were like and how their interactions worked. Any of those ups and downs and difference from one episode to the next could happen, but if they happened, really needed some sort of rationale. We were left with a brave Tosh one week and a mousy Tosh the next week and a frightened Tosh the week after that - leaving us with apparent inconsistencies.

I just didn't buy that Jack would go out and find the other ressurection gauntlet (because he suddenly randomly knows that the other one exists and is accessible) when he's so used to people dying on him,

And he of all people knows the dangers of messing with life, death, history and so on. He let the other Captain Jack die. He let Estelle die. Why change the rules for Owen? And having done so, why, in the next episode, did he act indifferent to Owen's fate and his wellbeing?

did not use Martha nearly enough

That was a tragedy!

After that point in the series, there were a lot of shaky episodes, although there were some good ones too, of course.

And good scenes in shaky episodes. And good ideas in bad episodes. And some good episodes with bad scenes. A grab-bag.

I actually have to wonder if the shakiness of S2 has something to do with the last minute change of Owen getting killed and ressurected instead of Ianto.

I didn't know they'd done that. Hmm. That would have made for quite a different resonance.

Much as I love Ianto, and I'm glad he's alive, story-wise,

I loved the way "Exit Wounds" ended with Jack hugging both Ianto and Gwen. On the other hand, I'm of the camp who believes that Jack loves them all. How much difference would it have made to me? I think I'm glad it was Tosh and Owen who died, because Tosh never reached her potential and Owen was all over the place.

I wouldn't be surprised if the line about the security code was originally written for Ianto.

Would have made a little more sense, though given the overall wildness of the situation, it probably would be marginal in effect.

Certainly the first half of series 2 was much, much better than the second half.

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

I love series one better, too. I thought it's because series one oiginally made me a fan:-) Come to think of it, it's probably because I'm mostly a Captain Jack fan. Series One is more about Jack, while Series Two is all about the team. I appreciate the latter(I love them all, this time) - and the better writting - but not the less Jack part. Though we can't really say there's less Jack, perhaps. But the backstory with Gray isn't strong enough (but better than the rest, in "Adam"); and "Exit Wounds" is a mess as a series finale, making both the characters of Jack and Gray(and the show) look ridiculous.

Series two makes me like Ianto and the Janto pairing much better, though. And Owen(but not his backstory in "Fragments"!). I don't like Tosh's backstory in the same episode either (she really should know better since she's the government agent?). And yeah, I'd like to see more Jack-Tosh stuff like in "Captain Jack Harkness". I think I like Jack/Tosh both as a friendship pairing and a slightly more sexual one.

I agree with you with most of the rest. Martha in "Reset" and KKBB is pure fun.

When I was watching series one, I thought the writers would improve much in their series two. And I'd been right: they did improve, though not in the same aspects that I'd expected. Which is the problem for me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, it's probably because I'm mostly a Captain Jack fan. Series One is more about Jack, while Series Two is all about the team.

That's more or less true - of the show, and of my approach to it. We learned more about Jack's past in "Fragments", but not much, in series 2, about his present or his state of mind, and he didn't get the same kind of character development he got in series one.

Seems to me that the people who most loved series 2 are the Ianto fans.

the backstory with Gray isn't strong enough

Series 2 would have been much, much stronger if that had come through. But it didn't; it ended up being a bit of a mess. (Casting and pacing problems as the tip of the iceberg.) A wet squib, in the end, where Jack almost gave the story the strength that Gray failed to give. Gray didn't even have real motivation or characterization: just bitterness personified, and it didn't get the development it needed.

making both the characters of Jack and Gray(and the show) look ridiculous.

And what a pity that was. I thought it was Gwen and Toshiko who shone in that episode, and Tosh in particular deserved the moment, but it was at Jack's expense in terms of attention and screen-time. In the end, the emotional thrust made it about his grief over their story, not their participation in his. When fans look back on "Exit Wounds", it isn't Jack's tragic relationship with his brother that matters, it's the deaths of Tosh and Owen. So what was the story about, anyway?

Series two makes me like Ianto and the Janto pairing much better, though.

I keep wanting to like it more than I do. I do like it. I just can't see it as exciting, and I want to see it as exciting. I'm still much more excited by Jack/Doctor, Jack/Jack, Jack/John, and Jack/Gwen... which I regret, because I want Jack/Ianto to be right up there too, but it just isn't. Not to say I don't like it. Just to say... it isn't what I want it to be. And what I like best about it is on the level of "The Captain and the Teaboy" rather than a great romantic story. In my mind, Jack's great romantic story is told in "The Doctor Dances" and "Boomtown" and "Captain Jack Harkness", with that nice sexy side-fling in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang". Maybe if we had a full episode dedicated to Jack and Ianto (perhaps a continuation of their segment in "Fragments") I'd be converted.

Owen(but not his backstory in "Fragments"!).

At first I liked Owen better in series 2. By the end, I liked him better -much better - in series 1. Totally revised thinking. He was such a strong character in series 1, troubled, a loose cannon, but true to himself.

I'd like to see more Jack-Tosh stuff like in "Captain Jack Harkness". I think I like Jack/Tosh both as a friendship pairing and a slightly more sexual one.

There's wonderful warmth and power there.

Martha in "Reset"... is pure fun

And then she was disappointing - irrelevant - in the next two episodes. Even, IMHO, a little out of character - I can't see the committed and caring Doctor Martha we knew in (for example) "The Doctor's Daughter" leaving suicidal dead!Owen to fend for himself with his own problems in "A Day in the Death".

I thought the writers would improve much in their series two. And I'd been right: they did improve, though not in the same aspects that I'd expected. Which is the problem for me.

Yes. We did get a more polished product, but it wasn't always more carefully thought through, and it didn't always deliver on its promises.

You know I love the show. I'm just enjoying the 'poke at the details' game.

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

but not much, in series 2, about his present or his state of mind, and he didn't get the same kind of character development he got in series one

Exactly. So Captain Jack becomes the wallflower in his own show. Who'd thought of this?

Seems to me that the people who most loved series 2 are the Ianto fans

I think a random watcher who's not particularly interested in Jack would probably find series 2 more appealing too. Or someone that very much prefers ensemble shows.

And one of the merits of series 2 is that it has more consistent Gwen characterisation (I love "Something Borrowed"), I think. Anyway Gwen haters will still refuse to see it.

it isn't Jack's tragic relationship with his brother that matters, it's the deaths of Tosh and Owen. So what was the story about, anyway?

You know, the first time I saw the episode, I even had this fear that the TW writers had given up on Jack as a character...

I keep wanting to like it more than I do

I'm with you on this. I like the pairing but I'm not getting thrilled by it. (Back in the first series I didn't even like it, with all the bad fics that flooded the fandom.) I think this is partly because I usually like pairings that give a more equal feel (I do like Jack/Ianto better in series 2), partly because I still think Ianto cried way too much in "Cyberwoman", lol. Though it's kind of interesting that these two begin as using each other and being messy and ugly, but gradually work their way towards the light...

I liked him better -much better - in series 1

I was already interested in the character and his relationship with Jack in series 1. Among the characters, Owen definitely got the best deal from the writers. He was just sweeter in series 2.

And then she was disappointing - irrelevant - in the next two episodes

*nods* It seemed obvious that she was just added to the scripts hastily.

We did get a more polished product, but it wasn't always more carefully thought through

I hope the show doesn't get too contented with itself because of better reviews and will continue exploring its limitations.

You know I love the show

Never doubted it, never will:-)

I'm just enjoying the 'poke at the details' game

That's half the fun!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So Captain Jack becomes the wallflower in his own show. Who'd thought of this?

I hope he has more of the spotlight in series 3

series 2 ... has more consistent Gwen characterisation

Not sure what you mean...? I didn't find her inconsistent in series 1; thought she was fairly solid throughout. The advantage of series 2 is that fewer plotlines depended on her (or someone else on the team) doing something stupid.

I think Gwen haters will just continue to be Gwen haters. I love the girl.

I like the pairing but I'm not getting thrilled by it.

Yes, that's it. It can be fun to read about, fun to write about. But in the context of the show... it's not doing much for me. I don't have a feel for it. Three seconds into the important scenes of "Captain Jack Harkness" (or "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang") and I knew exactly how Jack felt about Jack or John. But Ianto? Different story.

Back in the first series I didn't even like it, with all the bad fics that flooded the fandom.

I try to ignore and avoid them. Difficult, yes.

this is partly because I usually like pairings that give a more equal feel

I love equal pairing, I love unequal pairings. It could be either way - I do like the "Captain and the Tea Boy" scenario, but I'm not convinced of it. Nor am I convinced of the 'two loving equals' picture. What we get is what we get.

I still think Ianto cried way too much in "Cyberwoman"

He did... and I kind of loved it. But it didn't help me. Is Ianto emo boy, or is he stoic? Sometimes one, sometimes the other. Theoretically, I like that. But again, in practice... I'm not sure what to make of it. The love I want to see isn't there. The sparks don't fly.

it's kind of interesting that these two begin as using each other and being messy and ugly, but gradually work their way towards the light...

Yes. There is so much about their relationship I find 'interesting'. But it's all on an intellectual basis. No gut reaction.

I hope the show doesn't get too contented with itself because of better reviews and will continue exploring its limitations.

I hope so too.

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

Not sure what you mean...? I didn't find her inconsistent in series 1

What wasn't inconsistent, probably, are my own reactions during series 1. In one episode I liked her and sympathised with her; in another one I wanted to shout at her for being stupid. But even then I was on her side, because so many fangirls were being rather nasty and unfair towards her.

Three seconds into the important scenes of "Captain Jack Harkness" (or "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang") and I knew exactly how Jack felt about Jack or John. But Ianto? Different story

I think the other Jack is about passion and John about fun. Ianto...about this everyday-ish bitterness and sweetness between lovers? Like the smell of coffee. Oh, I'd make this a drabble if it had not already been written by everybody else.

I do like the "Captain and the Tea Boy" scenario, but I'm not convinced of it

Me neither. The writers didn't make up their mind, it seems. Which makes fanfic flourish even more.

Is Ianto emo boy, or is he stoic?

I'm confused as well. There're a few times when he seems to be the British stiff-upper-lip kind, but then, he begins in "Cyberwoman". Being stoic is his ideal, then. Okay, I can understand failing to be stoic (I do this on a daily basis!).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

In one episode I liked her and sympathised with her; in another one I wanted to shout at her for being stupid. But even then I was on her side

I shouted at her for being stupid all the time. ("Gwen! Don't let Suzie out of the cell... You're not going to, are you? Gwen? Gwen! SHE KILLS PEOPLE. She'll go after you!" That sort of thing.) Mostly it was because I loved her: I didn't want her to be so stupid!

And even when she was abominably stupid, I sympathized with her. She wasn't stupid in a self-serving or malicious way. I just wished she hadn't been stupid at all. I loved it in series 2, mostly in "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" when she pulled Torchwood together and made herself into an effective leader. (See also in "Exit Wounds". Go, Gwen!)

Ianto...about this everyday-ish bitterness and sweetness between lovers?

That's what I'd like to see. I'd like to see more of the everyday sweetness. We seem to only see it in extraordinary circumstances. I wish they'd casually hold hands a little more, or smile and look at each other, or... just be a little closer.

The writers didn't make up their mind, it seems. Which makes fanfic flourish even more.

Which is Good Thing, on the whole. Good for the fic. Good for the fans, though a little frustrating for those of us who aren't sure what we're seeing.

Being stoic is his ideal, then. Okay, I can understand failing to be stoic (I do this on a daily basis!).

Makes sense. He wants to be cool in crisis; crises come and he falls apart. Sometimes. He's learning, that boy.

[rabecka.livejournal.com]

Gray didn't even have real motivation or characterization: just bitterness personified, and it didn't get the development it needed.

Gray came across as somewhere between wooden and a whiny teenager, unfortunately. Sometime after the episode aired, I had a thought - picture Anthony Hopkins playing Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. Now think of having an actor who could portray that same sort of psychotic insanity playing Gray. Would have made a huge difference, no?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Gray came across as somewhere between wooden and a whiny teenager, unfortunately.

The story could have been very moving. If Gray had a streak of - something; sweetness, regret, humanity - as it was, there was nothing much there. Not sad, not scary, not... anything. And upstaged by Captain John, whose role was evanescent. Even in "Adam", when we saw Gray as a kid, he wasn't very endearing.

A good actor could have made all the difference. Or different direction. Or maybe a little more in the script to work with? Preferably, all three should have been better.

[miss-aztec57.livejournal.com]

Now I shall TRY to make an indepth comment like everyone else...

Of course I like all of Torchwood but generally I prefer season 2 better. This is probably cause im a massive Jack/Ianto fan and love the many awesum scenes. I do agree with most of ur points though.

The specific characterization of Owen. In series 1 he had an edge, a wild-boy self-destructive carelessness to him that made him both annoying and riveting. In series 2, without that edge, he was a lost soul - alive or dead. I liked him better as a loose cannon than as a victim of circumcstances.

I like Owen much better in season 1 as well. Although in 'Fragments' I think he was very interesting.

Tosh pined too much. Not self-pityingly, thank goodness, but episode after episode, all she had to deal with was loss. Tommy, her mother, her freedom, Owen. She's cute, sexy, brave, smart, strong and resourceful, and nothing in her life went right.

I love Tosh but her story just kept becoming more and more dreadful. I felt sorry for her but it was a bit like 'whats the next dreadful thing thats going to happen to her'.

I Love all those episdodes u listed as ur favourites. 'Fragments' would have to be my favourite. It was so intersting to find out about everyones past and it helped show how they became who they are. I (obviously) loved the pterodactyl scene. Iantos story was very entertaining. Tosh's and Owens story I found the most intersting however as I barely knew anything about their past.

So anyways thats the end of me trying to sound like I know something. All in all I love TW! =]

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Now I shall TRY to make an indepth comment like everyone else...

Go for it! I love it. Which isn't to say you have to - frivolous comments are welcome, too. [g]

This is probably cause im a massive Jack/Ianto fan and love the many awesum scenes.

I think you've put your finger on the difference. I think the people who most love series 2 are Jack/Ianto fans. I'm not so much of a Jack/Ianto fan and I wish I was - I really, really wish it did for me the the things it does for other fans - but it just doesn't quite push my buttons. Not that it isn't sexy and fun, but it doesn't (yet) mean to me what it should mean. Just a little, maybe, in "Adam" - which is why I love that episode so much.

Although in 'Fragments' I think [Owen] was very interesting.

He was, but he was so different, it was like watching a different character. I think I'd have been a lot happier with it if he'd been himself - irrelevant, edgy, crabby - even in the scenes with Katie, and if Katie loved him anyway - it would have seemed stronger and more tragic to me. Seeing Owen as a standard, regular doctor-type was a bit of a shock to me.

'Fragments' would have to be my favourite.

Lovely, isn't it? With a bit of something for everyone, and something about everyone.

'Fragments' would have to be my favourite.

Yay! Me too! What a fabulous show it is. I even love its imperfections.