Torchwood: Comments and reviews of Captain John Hart fics...

[fajrdrako]

I don't often comment on fanfic in my LJ here, mostly because I don't have time. You know I can never be brief when I talk about something I've read. I also don't talk much about the books I read. (Currently enjoying Linnea Sinclair's Gabriel's Ghost).

But I feel like commenting, so... Because of the anniversary of "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" and the Hart-fest on guns_n_poodles, and because Jack/John is one of my favourite Torchwood pairings (and one of the more complex and enigmatic ones), I did a bit of a Captain John Hart fic-binge last night and this morning. One doesn't usually put ratings or warnings on reviews and comments, so be warned, my comments on these stories are somewhat NC-17, reflecting the nature of some of the stories. This is also making me think that my own writing has become very vanilla, and I should do something a little deeper or spicier for a change.

I read:

1. Mission of Mercy by 51stcenturyfox. A series of scenes following the Captain John Hart as he trains (indoctrinates?) a partner or acolyte named Hoffman. 51stcenturyfox has a great sense of dialogue, especially Captain John's. For example:

"Am I allowed to talk now?"
"Is that sarcasm I hear?"
"No! I-"
John laughed. "Joking. Go ahead. Talk to me, gorgeous."

This is also one of those rare and beautiful things: a story with a sense of structure. The last line is a strong one. The material here is worthy of a novella; my only regret was that it was comparatively short and sketchy, given the scope of its theme.

2. Smile by anduria_trianys. A post-Exit Wounds story, interesting in that it resolves John's state at mind at the end of "Exit Wounds", something I would have thought impossible - yet it is clearly and deeply based on canon, and on what we see of John in that episode. I don't buy the resolution, and yet it's a fascinating way to read the story. The only flaw here is that it was a song-fic; further cementing my belief that I don't generally like song-fics. That aspect, though, was easy to ignore.

3. Addict by sistercarrion. A post-Kiss Kiss Bang Bang story, as John thinks about Ianto. sistercarrion's voice for John is spot-on, playing on his addictive nature and his deathwish tendencies, tying it into possibilities in Jack's relationship with Ianto. A short, strong, beautifully-written piece. Fresh. Clever.

4. Filing Away by sistercarrion. This reminded me of some of Dorothy Dunnett's writing (yes, that's a strong compliment to sistercarrion!) in that the story creates its effect by using the point of view of someone who doesn't know what is going on; the reader extrapolates and understands better than the narrator, who isn't so much 'suspect' as 'uninformed'. A glimpse of the Jack/John relationship through Ianto's eyes.

5. Impossible by sistercarrion. Playing to Captain John's kinks. sistercarrion takes it as given that Captain John has used Jack's wristband technology to get himself onto the Valiant during the Year that Never Was. While there, he doesn't encounter Jack: he is taken by the Master, and we get to see their brief, sexually-oriented meeting.

Now, I am perhaps unique in Doctor Who fandom in that I am not enchanted by either John Simm or his depiction of the Master, and to explain why or why not would be more of an essay than anyone is probably intersted in. But this was the Master at his best, and John being John, it had just the right light/dark BDSM tone and I loved it. Good lines:

• "His eyes spark with a dark intelligence as he scrutinizes me..."
  
• "He... dips his leather clad fingers into my mouth, pressing my tongue down hard. I taste my own blood, leather, and a strange tingling sensation underneath it all that I haven't tasted before." Vortex energy?
  
• "You really are a cocky little bastard, aren't you?"
  
• "You taste like time. Do you have any idea how rare that is these days?"

The best and most powerful part is when Captain John realizes the Master is inside his head, using and abusing telepathy, and it stops being gamelike to him - he panics. He can't control the situation as he thought he could. Shivers-down-the-back time.

Again, sistercarrion does that thing I love so much: she uses structure and form to enhance and strengthen her story. The title has meaning and emotional power. Things come together - story themes, not just body parts. Nicely powerful.

Again, the only flaw to the story is its brevity. I'd have loved a full story here: full scenes showing John's curiosity over where Jack had been, more action than the strictly sexual, perhaps more difficulty in escape for the panicked and desperate John. And perhaps more focus on his love/need of Jack. Ah, well, I don't ask much of my favourite authors, do I? I know, I know, I should write my own novels, if I want them so much.

5. Safety Catch by sistercarrion. Unlike the others in sistercarrion's set here, this doesn't play so much to my taste; the sexual action was great, but a dom!Ianto tends to bore me, so it didn't have the power it might have. But still... There's some very hot dialogue and description, some delightful gunplay. No complaints, though if Jack climaxed, I missed it... and would have like to have seen it all. Uncharacteristically for sistercarrion, the final line was weak: her endings are usually terrific.

6. Share and Share Alike by sistercarrion. No plot here, and almost no theme, just an unrepentant pwp. If you like double-penetration threesomes, which I do, this is a delightful one. Good passage:

"You're too cute when you do that couply thing, y'know?"
"Shut up," Jack and Ianto snapped in unison.

7. A selection of drabbles from sistercarrion:

• Ties that Bind Us - A nice John pov for "Exit Wounds".
  
• Bleeding Me Dry - tamer than it sounds, given the context.
  
• Bittersweet - my favourite of these: heartbreaking, and very like I see the Jack/John relationship.
  
• The Line Drawn in the Sand - Sexy, but the last line, which should have been punchy and strong, failed to convince me. I'm not sure why.
  
• Sleeping Rough - A cute scenario to say, essentially, the same thing as "The Line Drawn in the Sand" - much subtler and stronger, though not as sexy.
  
• Spank the Monkey - A cute visual play on John's jacket.

I ran out of time to comment on more, and there was a lot I want to say about paperclipbitch's I Nothing But to Please His Fantasy, which was the story that moved me to write down my thoughts in the first place. Nor have I commented personally to these authors on all their stories, as I intended to do before posting this. Ah, well, good intentions remain. I'll write more later.

Comments

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

You reviewed my story? Wow. Thank you very kindly for the positive comments on the dialogue.

Hearing that it should be longer is gratifying (was pumping to get it up for the KKBB anniversary/self-imposed deadline). Plus I'm personally kind of sketchy. I rarely even read long fiction unless it's OMG!AWESOME and it's hard to write those.

I agree that sistercarrion's John is fabulous and "you taste like time" is the best line ever. Guh. It kills.

Though not a massive Ianto fan (don't shoot me) I do like dom!Ianto - but it depends on the other(s) present.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you very kindly for the positive comments on the dialogue.

Thank you for providing me with such delightful reading enjoyment.

was pumping to get it up for the KKBB anniversary/self-imposed deadline

You did well!

I'm personally kind of sketchy

Me too. And more so as time goes by. I'm trying to fight the tendency - which maybe makes me hyper-aware when I see it in someone else's story. Don't mind me, I'm just greedy - I wanted more, more, and more!

I agree that sistercarrion's John is fabulous

She really has a good feel for his style and mannerisms, both verbal and physical. Her John isn't quite my JOhn - and that's all to the better. He's interesting.

"you taste like time" is the best line ever.

Yeah. Brilliant.

Though not a massive Ianto fan (don't shoot me)

Who me? I agree with you. I am... unenchanted with Ianto. He has great moments but they've yet to add up to a strong character in my mind. I love it that he's Jack's lover but I find many of Jack's other relationships hotter and more interesting - the other Jack, John, the Doctor, even his UST with Gwen, heaven help me. I'm not complaining about Ianto, just saying that... Ianto doesn't excite me often. And dom!Ianto almost always just seems unreal to me, very unsexy. My quirk, no fault of any particular writer or story.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Hearing you wanted more totally makes my week. I can't even tell you how much. ;)

Everybody's John is quite different, with just two full episode appearances and all of this conflicted unexplained history with Jack.

I think the real reason I'm not into Jack/Ianto fic is that I just don't usually get into younger characters. I like Indiana Jones! I like old seasoned characters who've done and seen more, with complicated backstory possibilities.

There have already been so many stories told about Jack/Ianto (with a lot of twu wuvviness). They're men, and men don't stop being essentially male in outlook/behavior because they're involved with another man, IMO.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hearing you wanted more totally makes my week. I can't even tell you how much. ;)

Awww - I'm glad to hear it. I was afraid I'd sound like a terribe nag, ungrateful for what I got!

just two full episode appearances and all of this conflicted unexplained history with Jack.

So true. We don't even know how much of what we saw was the real John and how much was Gray's plotting. That being said - he's an exciting, vibrant, brilliant character, and such fun to play with. (I'm sure Jack thought so once, and on some level, is tempted to repeat the experience.)

I think the real reason I'm not into Jack/Ianto fic is that I just don't usually get into younger characters.

Also true of me. And Ianto seems to me much younger than the 26-or-whatever he is supposed to be. Not immature, but unformed, inexperienced.

I certainly like complex backstories and older men.

While I agree that Jack is 'essentially male' and then some, I think he has a huge dollop of anima (the female side of the male consciousness in Jungian thought) mixed with his personality. Which is not to say there's anything particularly feminine or even androgynous about him, but that he has nurturing, charm, romanticism and grace that are not usually seen as centrally masculine characteristics. (My interpretation only, of course.)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

While I agree that Jack is 'essentially male' and then some, I think he has a huge dollop of anima (the female side of the male consciousness in Jungian thought) mixed with his personality. Which is not to say there's anything particularly feminine or even androgynous about him, but that he has nurturing, charm, romanticism and grace that are not usually seen as
centrally masculine characteristics. (My interpretation only, of course.)

I don't disagree. Although Jack doesn't verbally express every emotion that he experiences, I think he acknowledges them. (It's the verbal expression in (some) fic I find weird.

Stereotyping by gender burns me heartily in some contexts (even or maybe especially in fanfiction, since the majority of writers really ought to know better than to make women such wilters.)

I actually feel guilty for not developing female characters better. Gwen and Toshiko are interesting people! I think it's (in the case of an OC) fear of Mary-Sue-ing. I was in the military, which is where much of the cultural context comes from. I'm afraid I'll make another Time Agent too much like me... though I didn't run around shooting people in the face. ;)

As for Jack, being alive for that long (not to mention experiencing a major defining human experience like death, over and over) would tend to make a being monumentally more self-aware/evolved, in theory, anyway. Many things we do as people are related to how we view the inevitably of our own mortality, AMIRITE?

LOVE discussing this.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's the verbal expression in (some) fic I find weird.

I would certainly agree with that!

since the majority of writers really ought to know better than to make women such wilters.

Yeah... or simply bitches. Unnecessarily.

Gwen and Toshiko are interesting people!

They are. They both fascinate me. In fact, I'm working on stories about them. Slowly. (Sigh.)

I'm afraid I'll make another Time Agent too much like me... though I didn't run around shooting people in the face. ;)

Glad to hear it. I think. Can I ask you when I need military information? I came across something I needed to know today in that regard, and had no idea who to ask. So I faked it.

being alive for that long (not to mention experiencing a major defining human experience like death, over and over) would tend to make a being monumentally more self-aware/evolved, in theory, anyway.

Absolutely. And I think Jack is exceedingly self-aware, and a thinker. Perhaps this is overlooked because he is also a feeler, or because he keeps his thoughts, usually, to himself. Or maybe it's that many writers don't know how to handle it - an action-hero who thinks.

Many things we do as people are related to how we view the inevitably of our own mortality

True, very true. And Jack is now hyper-aware of his own immortality; subject to pain, but not death. Moreover, he is hyper-aware of the mortality of everyone (and everything) he knows. Gives him an entirely different world view.

Moreover, there are certain things in canon that fans simply ignore, maybe out of taste/preference, maybe because they don't know how to deal with it, maybe simply because they overlook it. I'm thinking of things like "Jack doesn't drink alcohol" and "Jack doesn't sleep", "Jack doesn't live in an apartment" - clearly stated in canon, seldom dealt with in fic, which tends to normalize Jack. I think he is fascinating because he is extraordinary, and doesn't live the way the rest of us do.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

ETA: more appropriate icon. ;)

Moreover, there are certain things in canon that fans simply ignore, maybe out of taste/preference, maybe because they don't know how to deal with it, maybe simply because they overlook it. I'm thinking of things like "Jack doesn't drink alcohol" and "Jack doesn't sleep", "Jack doesn't live in an apartment" - clearly stated in canon, seldom dealt with in fic, which tends to normalize Jack. I think he is fascinating because he is extraordinary, and doesn't live the way the rest of us do.

YES.

That is so true. Jack is singular. Going back to your superhero premise, he's not a regular person (he was at some point in the past/future but Torchwood Jack is an enigma - which writers can fill in as they wish, and that's... fantastic).

Can I ask you when I need military information? I came across something I needed to know today in that regard, and had no idea who to ask. So I faked it.

Anytime. I Mil-pick films constantly. ;)

Can I rec another military writer? shane_mayhem. Her Jack/Captain Jack is... there are no words.

http://shane-mayhem.livejournal.com/179851.html

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

more appropriate icon.

And it's just ... beautiful.

Jack is singular.

Perfect word for it. Yes.

he's not a regular person

And quite aside from the physical attributes, I am fascinated by the idea of a man with no legal identity - no identity except the one he has created for himself. Jack doesn't pay taxes, have credit cards, a passport, a birth certificate, citizenship papers, a credit rating, a driver's license - he isn't even in the phone book, though his number might well be listed under "Torchwood". I love the irony there - the greatest pick-up artist in fiction doesn't have a phone number of his own.

I have a private theory that he still has his psychic paper for use as necessary, but nothing in Torchwood has implied or confirmed that.

Torchwood Jack is an enigma - which writers can fill in as they wish, and that's... fantastic

Yes! Exciting and intriguing.

Anytime.

Then let me ask the question I would have asked yesterday. I was wondering if there was anything distinctive or unusual or chracteristic about the gravestones of soldiers - in this case, of the original Jack Harkness.

Thank you for the rec! I'm on my way over there.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

If the person is buried in a private cemetery, the gravestone would reflect whatever the family wants it to.

In a military cemetery, the gravestones are uniform and in WWII generally would have been crosses. http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/File:American_Flag_and_Cross_in_Normandy.jpg

But this was early in the war - I believe CJH's remains would have been returned to his family? That would take more research about the US RAF volunteer era.

This is interesting, but I can't confirm it:

http://www.ww2f.com/battle-europe/22721-how-us-pilots-joined-raf.html

When the USA finally joined the war in December of 1941, all of the Americans in both the RCAF and the RAF, were given the chance to transfer to the USAAF. Some did some didn't. A further thing to remember is that many Americans joined under an assumed name to get around the US Neutrality Act " that forbid service in a "foreign army". Some died under that identity too, and are buried with that name on their grave stone.

How about a story in which "Captain Jack Harkness" is nobody's real name? That would be... awesome.

No. 133 was a real RAF squadron with American volunteers.

Torchwood Jack (as Captain James Harper) tells the real Jack Harkness he's in the 71st (then the 71st Pursuit Squadron) which would have been training in the US at the time of the dancehall meeting and obviously not in the war yet.

I believe the real JH would have been posthumously decorated for his last mission (he downs three Messerschmitts) but he wouldn't have been a Medal of Honor recipient and Jack wouldn't assume the name of one - they're sort of too famous).

You made me read the script for Captain Jack Harkness and I now have Jack/John and Gwen/Owen plotbunnies. Yay!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If the person is buried in a private cemetery, the gravestone would reflect whatever the family wants it to

Great! That was my guess, and that's the way I played it.

I believe CJH's remains would have been returned to his family?

I thought that, and since he was shot down over England or Wales, not Germany, they probably had remains to send back. I rationalized that even were this not the case, the family might have had a gravestone to commemorate him anyway.

You made me read the script for Captain Jack Harkness and I now have Jack/John and Gwen/Owen plotbunnies. Yay!

ooooh, wonderful!

I was searching for a canonical birthplace for Captain Jack Harkness, but came up with nothing except that he was American - even the telegram to his mother doesn't list a home town as address. So I picked a small town in Texas, on the grounds that Matt Rippy is from Texas.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Texas is perfect. :)

I think you managed the gravestone bits just fine. Remains or no, there would be a gravestone, I would think.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That was what I hoped - and I'm so glad you agree.

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

(just so you know, I love this thread. hope I'm not butting in too much!)

I've actually done a bit of research on the "Harkness" family name. It's originally Irish, from the left coast of Ireland, if I remember correctly. Most of the Harknesses in the US live in the New York area--upstate.

When I write him I try to go by his accent ;)
Which is perfectly Pacific NW, actually, so he must be specifically trained to use that while acting or something. (A lot of American actors/newscasters/etc are coached in the Pacific Northwest accent, because it is the "purest" American accent.)

However, I think it's just a little too self-gratifying to write him as being from the PacNW (where I'm from), so I picked some kind of middle state, where the accent is flatter and less southern. But hey, Texas works! I know a lot of Texans who don't speak with that southern drawl...maybe on purpose.....;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

just so you know, I love this thread. hope I'm not butting in too much!

Oh course now, feel free - make yourself at home! The more the merrier. Love your input. (And any friend of Captain Jack is a friend of mine, you know?)

Most of the Harknesses in the US live in the New York area--upstate.

Interesting! If i'd known that, I might have had Jack go there. (Practically my part of the world, only a few hundred miles away. Well, with a big river in the way.) But I also liked the idea of Texas, partly as a tribute to Matt Rippy, partly because of a romantic notion of Robert E. Howard's 1920s-1930s background there, and the connotations of somewhere far away and remote. Or maybe I should just never have watched Carnivale.

When I write him I try to go by his accent ;)

That didn't help me - I hadn't a clue! American accents are opaque to me.
(Actually, I'm pretty bad with all accents anywhere.) Truth is, he didn't seem to have much of any kind of accent to me, which is probably indicative of something. If it's Pacific NorthWest, that's probably a rather like the Canadian West, no - ? Except for certain obvious anomalies (the Maritime accent, the Newfoundland accent, the Ottawa Valley accent) I can't tell regional accents in Canada, either.

I think it's just a little too self-gratifying to write him as being from the PacNW (where I'm from)

At least it's beautiful!

But hey, Texas works!

I thought so. Especially with the notion that he might have been from upstate New York, I am reminded of Clark Kent being from Smallville - which was originally in upstate New York but somehow gravitated to Kansas over time.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

It's a weird thing about the US. Commercial pilots are often depicted in pop culture with Texan accents. It's a reassuring "I'm not gonna let you die in my plane" sort of thing.

(Off-topic, sort of, but I just had a call from my Oklahoman cousin, who's finished his AF pilot training. He has that reassuring slur.)

;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's a weird thing about the US. Commercial pilots are often depicted in pop culture with Texan accents.

Really?

Huh.

Can't think why. But it's maybe a cute idea. Maybe it's because there's so much open space - scope for flying.

I just had a call from my Oklahoman cousin, who's finished his AF pilot training. He has that reassuring slur

LOL. Cool.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Everybody loves a Space Cowboy.

Music break!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yay!

That has many of my favourite Jack moments.... So nice!

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

I think there is also precedent for American volunteers being buried in military graveyards in Britain, though I'd have to double-check. At any rate, CJH is so extraordinary--being a foreign Group Captain for one thing--that I think it's probably okay to write him as being buried with special honors.

The American volunteer Squadrons (sadly, none of which were active in January of 1941--the 133rd didn't enter battle until October of that year and wasn't even fully formed until I believe March) were almost always commanded by British officers. So he must've been something truly amazing (or maybe had dual citizenship?) to have become a Group Captain, which is equivalent to the USAF rank of full Colonel. Also, at the age of 29 or 30, he would have been the youngest Group Captain ever, until his record was broken in 1945 by a 24-year old.

Very interesting point about American volunteers enlisting under assumed names. I didn't know that. I did know that a lot of them got around the US Neutrality Act by going across the border to Canada, into the RCAF.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think it's probably okay to write him as being buried with special honors.

The thing was, I wanted the opposite - a simple burial back in his home town, plain, unnoticed and civilian. I figure this could be his family's choice?

Of course he was amazing! Our Captain Jack knew that. We knew that. He was extraordinary!

I wasn't sure how old he was supposed to be. Nor could I figure out the age of Matt Rippy. Where'd you get the 29 or 30 estimate? (seems about right, too, though I haven't found a source.)

Yay for the RCAF!

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

Matt's age is a mystery...though he's young and pretty for sure. ;) I picked up the 29/30 from an unofficial but sort of canon website...I can't remember which right now. I thought it sounded plausible. He certainly doesn't look too much older than that. Even if he was mid-30's though, he'd be the youngest, in 1941.

Yes....he's beautiful, extraordinary....Torchwood Jack's perfect match....*sigh*

I think you're perfectly fine making it a small family burial, too. Because he was a volunteer, it really could be either.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Matt's age is a mystery...though he's young and pretty for sure.

That he is! I noticed.

I picked up the 29/30 from an unofficial but sort of canon website...I can't remember which right now. I thought it sounded plausible.

It does. I finally settled for his birthdate as 1914, after poking at 1911 and 1912.

Yes....he's beautiful, extraordinary....Torchwood Jack's perfect match....*sigh*

What I love most is that Torchwood Jack knew it. I wonder what the original Jack made of him... Must think and write more about that.

Because he was a volunteer, it really could be either.

That was my hope.

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

Must think and write more about that.

Oh, please do! :D There are so few of us Jack/Jack writers any more...have you visited at_the_ritz? All my stuff is there, as well as some archived stuff by some really great writers.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There are so few of us Jack/Jack writers any more...

We must keep the torch alive.

I have visited at_the_ritz, but obviously not nearly as often as I should. I need to catch up.

I'll look for your fic,and the other stories, since my original!Jack enthusiasm is high right now, but first I have a story to write myself that I'm almost overdue with for the deadline... [the shame].

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

Seems like you're writing/have written a fic that includes real!Jack? I'd love to read it. :D I adore him. It's hilarious; he's only in one episode, and sadly, quickly forgotten, but he's practically my favorite Torchwood character.

When you think about it, he's really there in everything that Torchwood Jack does, because taking someone's name is about more than just a name. Seems to me that something in Torchwood Jack wanted to be that hero, that kind of person, all along.

Anyway. Would love to read what you've written!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Seems like you're writing/have written a fic that includes real!Jack? I'd love to read it.

Just a drabble, though I have hardly run out of steam on the subject. It's here (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/1065087.html).

And previous Jack/Jack drabbles:

Remembering the Dance (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/1049191.html)

I Took Your Name (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/1042758.html)

Hawker Fury (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/1001192.html)

The Last Thing I Remember (2) - Captain Jack Harkness (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/613165.html#cutid2)

A ficlet:
As Time Goes By (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/744103.html)

That's it. I keep planning to write more about the two Jacks, but haven't yet. Don't worry, I don't forget about them!

Seems to me that something in Torchwood Jack wanted to be that hero, that kind of person, all along.

Yes. Jack already knew was his ideal would be: then he met it.

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

I had to go and read them all.

Very, very lovely. I really do hope you write more, now, because these were all so beautiful and painful and fantastic.

I'm adding the last one to my faves...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I had to go and read them all.

I'm glad you did.

I really do hope you write more, now, because these were all so beautiful and painful and fantastic.

What nice things to say.

Yes, I want to write more Jack/Jack fic. Need to think about ideas. They are so... constrained... in time and space, it takes a special sort of plotting or theme-building to construct stories around them. But it's worth the effort.

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

Now doesn't he drink alcohol in KKBB?

But John always has been a bad influence. :)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Jack does drink, sorry, I wasn't agreeing with that particular bit either.

- Beer with Gwen in Everything Changes
- While remembering Estelle and real Jack as fajrdrako notes
- Had a drink with John Hart

I wouldn't imagine him drinking when trapped in 1941 I (he has water, yes?). He's on duty and things/time are freaky.

It seems to me that Jack wouldn't drink when he has to be in control of his faculties/on the job.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Beer with Gwen in Everything Changes

No, that's water. She has the beer. His glass looks entirely different. It isn't specified what he's drinking, but it looks clear, like water. Certainly foamless.

Bar scene in "Everything Changes" (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/funkymonkey74/Torchwood/Episode%201/?action=view&current=TWDVDEp1_473.jpg)

And here, where his glass is almost empty, you can see what's left is colourless, while Gwen's glass has beer in it:

Later in the same scene (http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h311/funkymonkey74/Torchwood/Episode%201/?action=view&current=TWDVDEp1_535.jpg).

I love this stuff. I've looked for examples of Jack actually drinking alcohol, and can only find those two (similar) occasions.

I'd have to check "Something Borrowed" again to be sure, but though there is champagne (including that with Retcon in it!), I don't think Jack is seen actually drinking any.

While remembering Estelle and real Jack as fajrdrako notes

Yes; the two exceptions. Commemorating his dead.

Had a drink with John Hart

He opened the bottle with his teeth, but never drank from it.

I wouldn't imagine him drinking when trapped in 1941 I (he has water, yes?)

Yes, he made a point of ordering water.

It seems to me that Jack wouldn't drink when he has to be in control of his faculties/on the job.

I think the point is that Jack sees himself as always on the job. His recreation of choice is sex, not alcohol.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Now doesn't he drink alcohol in KKBB?

What scene are you thinking of? In the bar, with Captain John? Nope. It's an illusion. Jack opens the bottle with his teeth, and then holds the bottle while he watches John down his - he never so much as takes a sip of the alcohol. It's here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x_0wbPVpVc&feature=related), if you want to double-check, roughly moments 2:00 to 2:30. Is there another scene where Jack drinks? I don't think so, unless you count the flashback to the 19th century in "Fragments". I've been looking. It's always water. In one of the novels (Another Life) he says it's because he wants to stay hydrated.

But John always has been a bad influence. :)

Hee - it's his talent, and I love him for it.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

You win!

But I think he would have had a drink, if he hadn't been concerned about what John Hart was up to in Cardiff.

He's on duty, so keeping his faculties about him? Just a thought.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You win!

Hee. I've researched this one carefully.

I think he would have had a drink, if he hadn't been concerned about what John Hart was up to in Cardiff.

Maybe... I think he made a point of not drinking, after a certain point. After he took up with the Doctor? (That would imply he was faking drunkenness in the flashback in "Fragments", which is possible. Or that he was drinking to console himself on being abandoned.) Perhaps after joining Torchwood for real?

He's on duty, so keeping his faculties about him? Just a thought.

Presumably. Or wants to stay hydrated, as Peter Anghelides says. Maybe he thinks there are too many calories, and doesn't want to spend the rest of his infinite life as a fat man. (He does seem concerned with fitness. Health is presumably not much of an issue for him.)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yes. In my past(future?)!fics, Jack does drink. (Consistent with canon)

Emergency Protocol 417 :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y4xSEkH6CI

In one set in the present, he's remembering Tosh.

Since he's had a drink at least once, I'm fine with him drinking when he doesn't have to keep his faculties about him.

I'd really like to see the show's bible, I tell ya.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

In my past(future?)!fics, Jack does drink. (Consistent with canon)

Yes, that works. There clearly was a time Jack drank. To some extent he seems to associate it with death (those emergency protocols!) but there's an implication, I'd think, that he used to drink a fair amount, and likely did so with John.

Emergency Protocol 417 :D

I love that scene. Well. Of course I do!

In one set in the present, he's remembering Tosh.

I like that, because he does drink to his dead.

I'd really like to see the show's bible, I tell ya.

I heard there wasn't one - which would explain a lot. Iand why not? Isn't that... elementary? A no-brainer?)

Jack's not-drinking has been both subtle and consistent throughout each series of Torchwood and the books, so it must be deliberate and they must have some sort of character guidelines. I'd love to know what.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I heard there wasn't one - which would explain a lot. Iand why not? Isn't that... elementary? A no-brainer?)

RTD has a bible for Jack because of the Doctor Who tie-in, I'm pretty sure (but I've heard the same thing about Torchwood).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

RTD has a bible for Jack because of the Doctor Who tie-in, I'm pretty sure

I should hope so. Really, I have a lot more faith in Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat than I have in Chris Chiball, mostly from the more polished quality of their product.

[shane-mayhem.livejournal.com]

Hope no one minds me cutting in....

Actually, it's explained: He doesn't drink before going back to the Doctor because time travel dehydrates you and he wants always to be ready to travel with the Doctor again. Post-DW season 3 (TW season 2), we witness a few more instances of him drinking. (Or at least, it's implied). I can't remember where this was discussed....in an interview, maybe? But that's the reason given for it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He doesn't drink before going back to the Doctor because time travel dehydrates you and he wants always to be ready to travel with the Doctor again.

I like that explanation. A lot. Thank you!

Post-DW season 3 (TW season 2), we witness a few more instances of him drinking. (Or at least, it's implied).

What scenes are you thinking of? I dont' know of any, except maybe Gwen's wedding. Ooh, have I found an excuse to watch series 2 all over again?

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

And then, after saying this, I went and wrote a Jack/Ianto fic this morning. First ever.

*rolls eyes at self*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

LOL - *hugs*. I am so pleased. And amused.

Sometimes I think Ianto is fun to write about because I am not in love with him. There are many story and characterization aspects there to play with.

[topgeargirl2.livejournal.com]

That's a lot of stories.

In my Jack/James stories Jack drank scotch, well he did in the New Year Eve story and when he met James in the first place. Though he was depressed when he did have the scotch.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The only times we've seen Jack drink alcohol since the first episode of Torchwood was when someone he loved had died, and we've only seen that twice - with the deaths of Estelle and of Captain Jack Harkness.

[topgeargirl2.livejournal.com]

So what I got was he only drank when he was depressed.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What I got was that he only drinks when someone has died - in their memory.

[nacbrie.livejournal.com]

Oh, lovely! This is definitely a page to be bookmarked, thank you!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. Glad you find it useful - enjoy!