fajrdrako: ([Doctor Who] - Ten)
[personal profile] fajrdrako


I watched the Doctor Who 2008 Christmas Special The Next Doctor this evening. I had a video-party with [livejournal.com profile] maaseru, Beulah, Lyn, Sandi and Pat. After watching the show, we watched the Confidential.

A great time was had by all.

A few comments:
  1. David Morissey was much more appealing than he ever was as Ripley Holden, a character I hated in Blackpool. Better script. Though much as I enjoyed his role in the story as Jackson Lake, I didn't find myself drawn to the actor.

  2. Loved the whole set-up, with Lake believing he was the Doctor, and the real Doctor figuring out what had happened.

  3. Loved, totally loved, the TARDIS as a balloon.

  4. Loved the byplay with the fob watch. In fact, I loved the gadgets and the incidentals in this show: the steampunk styles, the sonic screwdriver that wasn't, the suitcases, the costumes, the look of the Cybermen. Wonderful!

  5. Why did the Doctor go to London in 1851? He wasn't sure what year it was... Perhaps he let the TARDIS pick the destination?

  6. Loved the Doctor's defeat of Miss Hartigan - making her see herself as she was. That's Doctor Who at its best.

  7. I liked it that they raised the question of the Doctor's loneliness, and his lack of a companion.... The way he said they broke his heart. (Not 'hearts'?) I loved that because I think it hints at my contention: that he is afraid now of getting too close to anyone.

  8. Loved the Cybershades. Scary.

  9. I liked Dervla Kirwan's style. She was magnificent. On the other hand, I didn't find Velile Tshabalala as Rosita very appealing: she was a bit too tough, a bit too shrewish - I didn't like the way she bossed Lake around. And her heroism seemed second-hand, described but not seen. As a sort of second companion she seemed extraneous. I liked the way she ended up with Lake and Frederick, though, as a sort of surrogate wife/mother, though frankly, if I were Frederick, I'd want someone nicer as my nanny.

  10. Lake's half-memories reminded me of the Doctor as John Smith in "A Family of Blood".

  11. I totally loved the Victorian cyberfactory. Didn't recognize it as the Hub at all. That was impressive! The kids as workers was a nice chilling touch, too.

  12. Miss Hartigan made me think of a slew of female Doctor Who villains of a similar type: Yvonne Hartman, Diana Goddard (my favourite by far), The Wire (maybe), and Miss Foster in "Partners in Crime". Miss Hartigan had the best end. There's something of the 'spinster schoolteacher' about these characters, though at least two of them are involved with children. I find them, on the whole, both compelling and scary; it's a certain way of handling authority.

  13. So why was Miss Hartigan corroborating with the Cybermen? Because she had a grudge against men? They hinted she was supposed to be a 'lady of the night' but I thought that didn't come across very clearly. She seemed cold, not wanton.

  14. Why were they horrified that a woman should come to the funeral? Was it because she was a fallen woman?

  15. Why had the Cybermen changed? Where did the Cybershades come from?

  16. Though by every reasoning I know I should hated the giant transformer CyberKing (as I did Abaddon), I liked him. I liked the way his hips were wheels and he moved as if he had gears.

  17. I know it's the theme of the 2008-09 season, but I don't like seeing the Doctor without a companion. Now, I loved "Midnight", so obviously I don't need a Companion's presence, but it was really the relationship between the Doctor and his Companion (Rose, as it happens, and then Jack) that drew me into the story and made me a Doctor Who fan in the first place. It doesn't have to be a romantic relationship (though I prefer it when it is), but the ephemerality of his relationships with his acquaintances in the one-shot stories isn't enough of a compensation for me. This isn't really a complain, just an observation, perhaps a slight surprise - though I knew it all along - how very important that central relationship is to me.

  18. In the Confidential, I particularly liked the part where they were talking about going up and down - the use of direction on the show.

  19. Loved the moment when the Doctor, not realizing that Miss Hartigan was with the Cybermen, tried to save her.

  20. Liked the ending, when the Doctor revealed rather a lot of himself, and went to Christmas dinner with Lake and family. I go the impression that the Doctor had a lot of fellow-feeling for Lake, and was rather fond of him.

  21. The story had very little about Christmas in it, except in the colours and a few visuals. The snow looked more real than in "The Planet of the Ood", which might have the fakest-looking snow I've ever seen.

  22. How long till the next Special?


Date: 2008-12-27 05:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beathen.livejournal.com
I totally loved the Victorian cyberfactory. Didn't recognize it as the Hub at all.

I totally didn't make that connection until you mentioned. Wow! Now that I think of it the set dressing was awesome!

How long till the next Special?

As I understand it - Easter.

Date: 2008-12-27 02:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I totally didn't make that connection until you mentioned. Wow!

I didn't recognize it at all - but they said in the Confidential what it was. They needed a big, high place for their set - and they already had one. I am impressed.

the set dressing was awesome!

They really outdid themselves.

As I understand it - Easter.

Is that in April this year? I'll have to look it up. March 23. Okay, I look forward to that.

Date: 2008-12-30 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beathen.livejournal.com
Is that in April this year? I'll have to look it up. March 23.

Actually, that was this year's Easter. Easter in 2009 is on April 12.

Date: 2008-12-30 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
April 12. Three and half months from now. Timer set and waiting - !

Date: 2008-12-27 05:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] txvoodoo.livejournal.com
I'm gonna miss not having 13 eps this year.

Agree with all you said!

Date: 2008-12-27 02:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I'm gonna miss not having 13 eps this year.

I'm going to have to watch all the previous episodes over again. The New Who episodes, I mean, though watching classic stuff would be an interesting challenge, too.

Whimper. We are deprived.

Date: 2008-12-27 05:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devohoneybee.livejournal.com
I loved the chemistry with Lake... I'd love someone to write a story where they is a bit more to "dinner".... Lake would actually make a lovely companion if it weren't for his child to care for. I'd hate for him to leave the child, though he *could* go with the Doctor and be back in time for tea (time travel!) except we all know how that usually turns out.

Date: 2008-12-27 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I loved the chemistry with Lake... I'd love someone to write a story where they is a bit more to "dinner"....

I was thinking the same thing. It really was rather slashy.

Lake would actually make a lovely companion if it weren't for his child to care for.

I'd love to see the Doctor show the kid around the TARDIS, though. Or take him somewhere for an interesting sight. Not an adventure, just some fun.

he *could* go with the Doctor and be back in time for tea (time travel!) except we all know how that usually turns out.

A year later he reappears, when everyone thinks he's dead. Mind you, they already thought he was dead...!

Date: 2008-12-27 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] atheneunknown.livejournal.com
I actually liked the companion in this one, reminded me of Martha and Donna stuck in a blender and poured out into 1841 England.

As for Miss Hartigan, I think she ran the local brothel, but like you said its vauge. I can't see her being a prostitute, but I can see her making it her lifes business to sell away other womans souls.

*shrug*

Date: 2008-12-27 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Martha and Donna stuck in a blender and poured out into 1841 England.

LOL.

I can't see her being a prostitute, but I can see her making it her lifes business to sell away other womans souls.

That's certainly a possibility.

Date: 2008-12-27 07:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] auriaephiala.livejournal.com
Why were they horrified that a woman should come to the funeral?

From what I've read, in 1851 it was less likely that a woman would attend a funeral, although this did happen. It was argued that women might become emotional, or get upset if the funeral attendants got drunk. According to _Inside the Victorian Home_, many manuals of proper conduct strongly advised against women attending.

See also http://vichist.blogspot.com/2008/06/victorian-funerals-and-mourning.html .

Date: 2008-12-27 02:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Interesting!

Date: 2008-12-27 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wijsgeer.livejournal.com
I eh... was a bit disappointed at times.....

I could not belief in the cyberfactory. Why did they need the children? I'd be rather more convinced if they had something more horrid in store for them, a special type of conversion that only worked on small bodies or what ever. No they just had to give a minimum of manual labour (something they could have well done themselves I think) and they were disposable. For me it just felt too much as a plot device (and when you start thinking about plot devices during th show it is wrong).

As for Mercy being a lady of the night, I allready got the impression they hinted at that when she was at the funeral and she berated the men for walking past her so many times and not acknowledging her.

I agree with you on Rosita, something wasn't quite "right" there, she was a bit to much of a stereotype. I didn't find her unpleasant like you seem to, but not quite... well she was a companion for a Doctor who was himself not quite... Brave and smart, sincere and earnest, but not the Doctor.

The TARDIS was lovely (reminded me of the Baron of Munchhausen) and the new acronym was cute. I like it how it shows that Lake is doing his best to make sense of garbled memories.

Date: 2008-12-27 02:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Why did they need the children?

I think that was just to play up the 'suffering orphans in the workhouse' angle - a play on Dickensian themes.

I'd be rather more convinced if they had something more horrid in store for them, a special type of conversion that only worked on small bodies or what ever.

That's what I was expecting. An army of small Cyberchildren or something. As it was, it seems the only person the Cybermen really wanted to convers was Miss Hartigan.

No they just had to give a minimum of manual labour (something they could have well done themselves I think)

It wasn't clear how many Cybermen there were, but it did seem they could have pushed those levers themselves. Still: Cybermen aren't too bright.

As for Mercy being a lady of the night, I allready got the impression they hinted at that when she was at the funeral and she berated the men for walking past her so many times and not acknowledging her.

So she was angry at them for not hiring her? I thought that at the time, but still thought she was an interestingly contradictory character - if a whore, she was deliberately nonsensual, which is interesting.

I didn't find her unpleasant like you seem to, but not quite... well she was a companion for a Doctor who was himself not quite...

That's true: Lake was a near-miss as a Doctor, she was a near-miss as a Companion. I didn't hate her, but I didn't warm to her, either. There just wasn't enough there.

I like it how it shows that Lake is doing his best to make sense of garbled memories.

I liked that too. He was ... coming close in a lot of ways.

Considering that the Doctor can erase memories (we saw him do it with Donna), I expected him to do a little telepathy with Lake to see what memories he could reach. When he touched his face, I wondered if that was telepathy happenening, but it seemed not to be.

Date: 2008-12-27 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wijsgeer.livejournal.com
I think that was just to play up the 'suffering orphans in the workhouse' angle - a play on Dickensian themes.

yeah, but they felt too much as just a theme for me. I would have loved them to have a limited amount of material and hence resorting to other things than full grown cybermen and instead using those cyber beasts and cyberkids. I've never seen a cyberkid, it would have been a nice touch. Oh well, I shouldn't think and just watch.

So she was angry at them for not hiring her? I thought that at the time, but still thought she was an interestingly contradictory character - if a whore, she was deliberately nonsensual, which is interesting.


I think there might well be many whores who are not sensual. People (certain these upright protestant blokes) often have funny double feelings about sex, wanting and loathing, desire and repulsion all warring together. Simple sensuality might well not be what they want, paid sex should not be generously given. So it might well be a good attitude to have for a sew worker.
And no, I don't think she was angry for them not patronizing her services but just for patronizing her. For walking past her, officially looking down on her and at the same time throwing secret glances at her wares so to speak. At least, that seems to me quite a reasonable reason to become bitter. I see her as a smart woman with very limited ways to make use of her potential, society left her the option of whore but it is so absolutely condemning about it. I agree she doesn't seem sensual and I wouldn't think her a great lover of sex. The a-sexuality of the cybermen might very well be one of their attraction (and the possibility that they would give her power and she could pay back the society that had wronged her).

Date: 2008-12-27 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I've never seen a cyberkid, it would have been a nice touch. Oh well, I shouldn't think and just watch.

I agree. It would have been scary, and we'd already seen the Cybershades, though I think Cyberbeast is a better name for them.

People (certain these upright protestant blokes)

Of whom your British Victorian male would be a prime example!

often have funny double feelings about sex, wanting and loathing, desire and repulsion all warring together.

I did wonder if that was part of her thing - maybe not exactly a dominatrix role, but a dominating one.

I don't think she was angry for them not patronizing her services but just for patronizing her.

Makes sense.

The a-sexuality of the cybermen might very well be one of their attraction (and the possibility that they would give her power and she could pay back the society that had wronged her).

I agree. I think she wanted revenge and validation - and thought Cyber-power was a way to get it.

And then of course the Cybermen were just as patronizing as the human men - they wanted her on their terms, and told her that the upgrading was for her own good. Interesting karma, tying in nicely with the Doctor's revenge of showing her the reality of what she'd done.

Date: 2008-12-27 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wijsgeer.livejournal.com
I did wonder if that was part of her thing - maybe not exactly a dominatrix role, but a dominating one.

I think, perhaps, I should try and look for a book for different types of whores/different roles. Preferably in a socio-economic expose or cultural (not a psychological study I mean).

Date: 2008-12-27 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Yes, quite right.

Date: 2008-12-27 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wijsgeer.livejournal.com
And then of course the Cybermen were just as patronizing as the human men - they wanted her on their terms, and told her that the upgrading was for her own good. Interesting karma, tying in nicely with the Doctor's revenge of showing her the reality of what she'd done.


But wasn't it fun that she somehow overcome the rule of no emotion-less? No matter how often I see the trick of the totally black eyes, I keep finding it creepy. As for creepy, cybermen filled with emotions (like sadism and powerlust) would be ultra creepy...

BTW what was the weapon the Doctor used?

Date: 2008-12-27 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
But wasn't it fun that she somehow overcome the rule of no emotion-less?

I liked that. I liked the way that the Cybermen weren't predictable - they weren't just the same metallic creatures we'd known before becuase they were acting different. Which was terrifying.

As for creepy, cybermen filled with emotions (like sadism and powerlust) would be ultra creepy...

Yes!

BTW what was the weapon the Doctor used?

Er... um... sonic blue ray?

Date: 2008-12-27 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] library-of-sex.livejournal.com
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Date: 2008-12-27 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Thank you for the nice welcome!

Date: 2008-12-27 07:33 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gillo
I think it was "not done" for respectable women to attend funerals during the nineteenth century - there's a very sad account by Cassandra Austen of seeing her sister's funeral procession go round the corner of the tsreet and vanish forever.

I liked a lot of it, though as usual with RTD there were some irritating plot holes. Where did the cybershades come from? What were they for? They reminded me of the sidekicks to the Gentlemen in Hush. Were the children destined to become cybershades? Why did it have to be children for the work, when so much of it seemed to be rather pointless moving of boxes and turning of wheels?

OTOH, I thought it looked gorgeous and there were moments that were really hilarious- the two Doctors being dragged up the wall and through the attic, for example. I enjoyed seeing the Doctor work out what must have happened and loved the tact and sensitivity he showed.

But if I never hear RTD say it had to be "bonkers" because it was DW again, that will suit me just fine.

Date: 2008-12-27 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I think it was "not done" for respectable women to attend funerals during the nineteenth century -

I didn't know. What a strange century that was.

Where did the cybershades come from?

And why'd we never see them before? Why, in fact, were the new Cybermen of a different design? Do Cybermen... mutate? Evolve? Experiment? Upgrade themselves?

They reminded me of the sidekicks to the Gentlemen in Hush.

Me too! It was the way they moved. And I liked that.

Were the children destined to become cybershades?

If so, they should have told us. (Scary idea.)

Why did it have to be children for the work, when so much of it seemed to be rather pointless moving of boxes and turning of wheels?

I would guess it was just that the children were disposable and no one cared what happened to them, or even noticed they were gone.

the two Doctors being dragged up the wall and through the attic, for example

Excellent visual humour

I enjoyed seeing the Doctor work out what must have happened and loved the tact and sensitivity he showed.

It was an example of the Doctor really being insightful and clever, which I love seeing.

if I never hear RTD say it had to be "bonkers" because it was DW again, that will suit me just fine.

Yes. And they use the word 'iconic' way too much and the Confidentials, though interesting, often have a self-congratulatory tone that annoys me.

Date: 2008-12-27 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raissad.livejournal.com
I could have sworn Hartigan said she was the matron of a workhouse, and they berated her for dreaaing like a whore, not being one.

The cybershades were converted dogs and cats, mentioned at the beginning. I loved the character elements, imagery, and performances. But, I had issues with the plotting. It was very RTD -- lots of technobabble.

Date: 2008-12-27 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I could have sworn Hartigan said she was the matron of a workhouse, and they berated her for dreaaing like a whore, not being one.

Could be - they implied otherwise in the Confidential, which is why it was a little confusing.

The cybershades were converted dogs and cats, mentioned at the beginning.

I missed that. Had we not seen them before? Was it the Cyberleader converting them?

I loved the character elements, imagery, and performances. But, I had issues with the plotting.

Yes. Imagery particularly was good, and David Tennant was terrific.

It was very RTD -- lots of technobabble.

Absolutely! He loves that stuff.


Date: 2008-12-27 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raissad.livejournal.com
I was right. She was the matron of St Joseph's workhouse (1:10):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grd0Aefd2xc

They never specified who converted the cybershades. I just assumed that they were initial experiments to determine if tech of the period could be used in the process. The Doctor calls it a primitive conversion (2:50):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5IfK7Maic0


Date: 2008-12-27 11:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
They never specified who converted the cybershades... The Doctor calls it a primitive conversion

Seems to me we have a story behind the story here. How did Miss Hartigan find the Cybermen? or did they find her? Why were children useful for their purposes? Was there another power behind them?

Okay, these are fanfic sorts of questions, but the episode leaves a lot of room for them.

Date: 2008-12-27 09:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gypsylady.livejournal.com
I had the impression Miss Hartigan was somehow connected to the workhouses, like she was in charge of cleaning crews or something like that. The men's reaction to her appearing at the funeral wasn't what I'd expect of them should a prostitute appear. They were shocked more at her gender and mode of dress. And she said something about cleaning up for the poor or orphans. (I'll have to watch it again. Hardship, I know.)

I liked Rosita to an extent but when Miss Hartigan said "I doubt he pays you to talk" she ought to have said something snarky back. That she didn't speaks more to me of RTD's feelings than the characters. He really didn't give that character much thought. She was nice but hardly Companion material. Okay, gutsy, yeah, but still... (And did you love the look on Ten's face when Lake says that the Companion always does as the Doctor says? THAT was hysterical to me.)

Was it weird to anyone else that the Cybermen thought Lake was the Doctor even though they'd already seen him with his wife and son? And when Lake says that being in the Tardis makes his head hurt, did anyone else think maybe there's another fobwatch somewhere? One that contains yet another Time Lord? Not necessarily the Master. Not even necessarily one from the past. Just Random Q. Time Lord... Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, since I really adored Morissey in this role.

And as for the children, I think it was because that was all she had access to so that's what she thought of.

Date: 2008-12-27 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I'll have to watch it again. Hardship, I know

Me too.

when Miss Hartigan said "I doubt he pays you to talk" she ought to have said something snarky back.

I would have!

That she didn't speaks more to me of RTD's feelings than the characters. He really didn't give that character much thought.

I don't think she was supposed to be important in the least: just an echo of the Doctor-Companion relationship for purposes of the plot. She had no background, insubstantial lines, plenty of attitude but no development. If she'd been missing, the story would have been the same.

And did you love the look on Ten's face when Lake says that the Companion always does as the Doctor says? THAT was hysterical to me.

I loved that. Best line (and reaction) in the show.

Was it weird to anyone else that the Cybermen thought Lake was the Doctor even though they'd already seen him with his wife and son?

Those Cybermen were remarkably stupid.

when Lake says that being in the Tardis makes his head hurt, did anyone else think maybe there's another fobwatch somewhere?

Aah - more plot fodder for the future.

I really adored Morissey in this role.

I loved the character and the script but not so much Morissey - I thought him lacking in charisma.

I think it was because that was all she had access to so that's what she thought of.

Her own little army? Yes, could be.


Date: 2008-12-28 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nina-ds.livejournal.com
I finally watched, so now I can respond to others' responses...

I totally agree with you on 1-3. I think perhaps because David Morrissey has never moved me at all (and I didn't like anyone in Blackpool), I was surprised that I liked him as much as I did in this. Perhaps some of it was contrast, but not all of it.

I liked Dervla Kirwan's style. She was magnificent.

Wasn't she? I really loved the way she was played. Erm, not so much the way she was written, but I think the design was one of the real plusses of the episode, even though it wasn't entirely on the whole time.

Miss Hartigan made me think of a slew of female Doctor Who villains of a similar type: Yvonne Hartman, Diana Goddard (my favourite by far), The Wire (maybe), and Miss Foster in "Partners in Crime".

I had the same thought, although as much as I love Diana Goddard, I think I love Yvonne just a little bit more because she was more developed. I would agree, though, that Goddard had terrific potential. I would have loved to have seen her as a companion, actually.

Still, RTD seems to have a very narrow view of strong women and their motivations - or lack thereof, in this case.

Oops, sorry for orthographical error, there!

Date: 2009-01-02 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
David Morrissey has never moved me at all

Even in The Next Doctor, while his story moved me, and David Tennant moved me, Morrissey didn't move me. I've only seen him in two roles, but in the first (Blackpool) he seemed artifical to me, a little overdone, like a hammy version of a slimeball. Mind you, that was the style of the show - not necessarily anything to do with Morrissey himself. So in The Next Doctor I found him pleasant enough, but underplayed, not showing much personality except what as imposed on him by the illusion of being a Doctor. He was bland. I liked him well enough, but didn't see a lot there.

I think the design was one of the real plusses of the episode, even though it wasn't entirely on the whole time.

The sense of her presence was magnificent.

Goddard had terrific potential. I would have loved to have seen her as a companion, actually.

Ooh, I wish!

RTD seems to have a very narrow view of strong women and their motivations - or lack thereof, in this case.

I just wish he wouldn't slap them down, like Donna, like Martha - even Rose. Terrific characters, but with sad, tragic or unsatisfying fates.

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