Death, immortality and Captain Jack Harkness...

[fajrdrako]

dees417 posted on literaryquotes today:

Death is a part of who we are. It guides us. It shapes us. It drives us to madness. Can you still be human if you have no mortal end?
-- Christopher Paolini, Brisingr

That has to be a rhetorical question, since outside of religion, myth and fiction, we have no sample subjects to date.

Still, it's an interesting one, the whole subject of death on our psychology. Most people don't talk about it, or they use euphemisms that bypass the pain. Understandable, to want to avoid pain. Sometimes that's healthy. Sometimes not.

Is Captain Jack Harkness truly immortal? He thinks he is, since he's had no evidence to the contrary, but if he's the Face of Boe, we've seen him die. For good. And not come back. (Or we think we have.) If he's not the Face of Boe, well... anyone's guess. It seems to me that his acute awareness of the mortality of others is a sort of psychological replacement for knowledge of his own death. As for being driven mad - well, he's had his bad moments, but is on the whole a sane a man as any I've seen on television, and more than most. In all the nicest ways. He also has a highly developed death wish - a sane response to his circumstances.

The truth of it is, most of us think about the deaths of others more than we think of our own. We have an instinct to resist death, but a tendency to disregard it. My favourite line about hte approach to death is from a Mary Renault novel, probably Fire From Heaven - something to the effect that we should ive each day as if it were our last, but assume we will live forever.

I've heard a lot of people say that they wouldn't want to be immortal. It sounds wonderful to me: think of all the opportunities to learn, to read, to think, to explore! The 'fate worse than death' in my head would be either living in pain or depression, or living in artificial circumstances rather than experiencing real life or real death, like River Song.

Comments

[trialia]

Would you really like to have to watch everyone you know and love die before you? I wouldn't.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't like it, no, and it's the Jack Harkness dilemma.

But it happens whether you're immortal or not. All my relatives a generation older than I am have died now. Friends my own age and younger have died, or are dying. Many people I love have died, many people I used to know have died, and everyone I know will die, many of them before me. It's happening already.

Immortality wouldn't make much difference there.

[trialia]

Oh, I know, but it always seems to me as though immortality would just be like multiplying that loss over and over again. I don't think I could deal with that; it's bad enough having one lifetime of it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As I see it, it isn't a choice of dying or not dying so you don't witness the deaths of those you love; it's a choice of loving or not loving, because everyone we love will die (many of them before us, since 't get to choose). And as with all things, it isn't the length of life that matters - dying young so we can die before everyone else isn't an option either. It's the quality of life that matters.

And that involves having the strength and courage to watch those we love die when they die before us. And to survive our grief. I'd rather love and grieve than not love. And it's a tossup as to whether to wish the grief on them, if we're the one to die first. It has to be the one thing or the other.

I don't think immortality would make any difference there. If anything, I'd rather take the grief on myself, and spare them, I think.

[trialia]

This may be selfish of me, but between living forever in my state of health and living just one lifetime like this, I'd take the single lifetime. I believe in reincarnation anyway, so to my mind nobody ever truly leaves.

I've already lost more than I care to lose again, and seen its effect on other people as well. So yes, I see your point, but it doesn't necessarily make me want immortality.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Reincarnation is a cool idea. I'd like to believe in it. Part of me does: I really believe, or half-believe, that I have memories of a past life. Strong memories. On the other hand, I don't want to believe in reincarnation, because whatever that reborn person would be, it wouldn't be me: different experiences, different body, different memories and thoughts.

So in terms of this speculation, I'd rather continue as myself. With baggage, yes, but at least it's my own baggage, and there's a lot that's positive to that. I like the person I have been, the one I have become, and the one I am in the process of becoming.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

And that involves having the strength and courage to watch those we love die when they die before us. And to survive our grief. I'd rather love and grieve than not love.

And having the strength to love when the loss is inevitable. That's been a dilemma for Jack, at least in fic. At first he was so determined to know what lay beyond, remember? Once he heard the answer -- "Oh my God, there's nothing!" -- he dropped that line of inquiry like a hot rock.

So from Jack's POV, his dead loves are just GONE. Gone without hope of a spiritual reunion. Gone into the dark. It must be terrifying for him to put those he loves in danger, and yet his heart is so warm that he can't protect himself from love.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's been a dilemma for Jack, at least in fic.

In the show, too. Over and over we've seen him mourn for those he loves. We've even, I think, seen him cut himself off from others because he is afraid of the pain of losing them - but that's interpretation. In the end he accepts the pain because he needs the love.

He's coping with this better than the Doctor does.


It must be terrifying for him to put those he loves in danger, and yet his heart is so warm that he can't protect himself from love.


No wonder I love him.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

In the show, too.

Well, yes, but I couldn't think of any examples to back up my statement, so I weaselled. ;-)


In the end he accepts the pain because he needs the love.

As does Ianto in his way. He throws himself on Jack because Jack is the only one strong enough to hold him. That boy has seen the dark and lived to tell.


No wonder I love him.

*happy sigh*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, but I couldn't think of any examples to back up my statement, so I weaselled.

Hee. Well, we've seen him devastated over the death of Rose (in "Bad Wolf"), Estelle, John Ellis, the other Captain Jack (and hte childhood friend he mentions to him), Alex and the Torchwood personnel he killed... Toshiko and Owen... how's that for a start? He don't in the show get much of his internal dialogue dealing with it, but it's hinted at in various ways.

As does Ianto in his way. He throws himself on Jack because Jack is the only one strong enough to hold him.

What a beautiful way to put it.

That boy has seen the dark and lived to tell.

In ways that are parallelled by Jack's own experience; Jack not only has the strength to help him, he has the knowledge and understanding to do it well.

Which is why I love Jack's faith in Ianto in "Adam" so much.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Your beautiful icon illustrates some of what I sense about them: that Ianto drinks in Jack's life like an infant at the breast.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, that works in terms of their relationship - a sort of energy flow as Ianto learns from Jack, both emotionally and practically. (And, I add hastily, sexually. And probably psychologically.) In return, Jack has someone he can trust and nurture and turn to.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I was thinking largely of sexual communication but I feel totally lost for a way to say what I'm thinking.

What I'm trying to get to is that I think all of the kisses go back to that first kiss we see: Ianto dead or dying at Lisa's hands, and Jack breathing life back into him. Each subsequent sexual exchange partakes of the virtue of that kiss. Ianto grows ever stronger.

What happened before it: Ianto's whoredom, Jack's ---well, we don't really know Jack's side of it: what happened before it was cancelled by that act.

So Jack just gives and gives from his "all-you-can-eat buffet" of life.

He's the pelican who bleeds to nourish his young.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I love the way you interpret the Jack/Ianto relationship, not coincidentally because it's the way I see it. At least, in its implications.

I see it as fairly complex, and on levels that neither Jack nor Ianto are consciously aware of, though they each understand (in their own ways) the relationship as it stands between them. On the simplist level: it's healing, it's fun, it's mutual, and it's loving. For both of them.

On other levels: Jack went through his own psychological epiphany with Nine in "The Doctor Dances", and paid the Doctor in love, loyalty, and support to the death. Then transformed by death, Rose, and the vortex energy, he has a sort of healing core on various psychological and physical levels. All that TARDIS energy. Because he has the wisdom of his years of life and experience, the wisdom he learned from the Doctor, and the healing powers within, he has ways of helping people he is close to with his presence. It's a little like having those 51st century pheromones: Jack is different. Human, but also slightly more.

I'd agree that that kiss in Cyberwoman was important, maybe pivotal. A turning point in their relationship. I can't decide when I think they first started having sex - when Ianto started working at Torchwood? Three months later, after the kiss, when Jack learned about Lisa? After Suzie died again, despite what the actors claim?

It would be interesting to write Jack's point of view of the events of Cyberwoman. And I think that a lot of really personal stuff happened between Jack and Ianto that we didn't see, between Cyberwoman and Coutrycide, when Ianto was on suspension and Jack was helping him put his life back together without Lisa.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Human, but also slightly more.

Hm, yes.


he has a sort of healing core on various psychological and physical levels

I think his chief superpower is genuine loving forgiveness. It's something we see over and over with him. Nine forgave him and made him anew, which gave him that power I think. It's the only way Ianto is still his beloved, after betraying him twice.

My theory is that Ianto baited Jack for sex soon after he was hired. I imagine it was an agonizing, confusing fall.

ETA: Imagine also his shame, after all was lost in Cyberwoman, after the rage and grief dulled: revealed to his savior as a con and a whore. But Jack doesn't let him go, won't let Ianto believe himself corrupt, just loves him and loves him.


All that TARDIS energy.

Oh of course! I hadn't thought of that. Durr.


I think that a lot of really personal stuff happened between Jack and Ianto that we didn't see, between Cyberwoman and Coutrycide

They were clearly in a different place by Countrycide. Jack was taking Ianto very seriously, and watching him very closely.

/Babbly Decaf McRambles

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Re Jack:

I think his chief superpower is genuine loving forgiveness.

I love that. I really do. Best superpower ever. That and his sense of compassion.

Nine forgave him and made him anew, which gave him that power I think.

By example? Yes, I think so. I think that by the end of "The Doctor Dances" Jack was already reinventing himself with the example and inspiration of the Doctor. Forgiveness and nurturing were part of the behaviour he imprinted.

It's the only way Ianto is still his beloved, after betraying him twice.


I think the parallel is close. Jack started out conning the Doctor for his own purposes; Ianto was conning Jack. Jack's con almost destroyed humanity; so did Ianto's. The Doctor set Jack a task to redeem himself (with the bomb - "psychology") and then accepted Jack with total trust. Jack did something similar with Ianto (the first time - no tests, the second time, just acceptance).

Equally, knowing Ianto's guilt didn't change Jack's view of him, just as knowing Jack's guilt didn't change the Doctor's attitude. (Not until Ten came along, then it was a whole different story - the parallel ends with Nine.)

But Jack doesn't let him go, won't let Ianto believe himself corrupt, just loves him and loves him.

And by loving him, heals him. Gives meaning to his life. Gives him a sense of self and self-worth. Gives him independence and love at the same time. I think Ianto is maturing a lot, practically before our eyes.

Jack was taking Ianto very seriously, and watching him very closely.

I have come to love the interplay between them in Countrycide, though I keep reinterpreting it.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Jack did something similar with Ianto (the first time - no tests, the second time, just acceptance).

I'm slow: what are you referring to here? Jack letting Ianto back into Torchwood --with a promotion to fieldwork-- after Cyberwoman, and then Jack forgiving Ianto --with a promotion of sorts, a public demonstration of quite unbrotherly love-- at the end of End of Days?

Don't start me on Ten's emotional and psychological deficiencies...


And by loving him, heals him. Gives meaning to his life. Gives him a sense of self and self-worth.

It's as if he never had a sense of self-worth, ever. Having it, he's becoming a powerful young man: as you say, maturing before our eyes.

I just finished a rewatch of S1, and he was just a boy. Even when called to great action (as in Cyberwoman, Countrycide, and Captain Jack Harkness) he's a frightened boy, out of his depth, trying to seem in control, trying to keep his shit together.


Gives him independence and love at the same time.

I think there's a lot of father/son in their relationship. It's pretty much a Jungian playground. I notice a lot that Ianto leans on Jack or snuggles his head down on his shoulder; very much like a child seeking comfort. But Jack increasingly allows him headroom for making decisions, taking action, making mistakes.

Jack is the alchemist making a man of the boy.

I wonder, in his long life, if he's done as much for any other lover.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm slow: what are you referring to here? Jack letting Ianto back into Torchwood --with a promotion to fieldwork-- after Cyberwoman, and then Jack forgiving Ianto --with a promotion of sorts, a public demonstration of quite unbrotherly love-- at the end of End of Days?

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. I also wonder what passed between them after the end of "Adrift", when Ianto made sure Gwen found out about Flat Holm against Jack's orders. I don't think Jack was particularly angry about that; but he might have been.

Don't start me on Ten's emotional and psychological deficiencies...

This has been driving me nuts since "Utopia" and is worse still in "Journey's End" - with regard to his relationship with Rose, there, though we still have him - no, no, don't get me started, either.

I've been thinking of writing a fic that explains or explores his perspective on these problems, though I don't think it's anything that can be fixed. A person who drives those who love him away - and then whimpers in his loneliness.

It's as if he never had a sense of self-worth, ever. Having it, he's becoming a powerful young man: as you say, maturing before our eyes.

I love this. For me, it's the most interesting thing about Ianto.

I just finished a rewatch of S1, and he was just a boy.

Yeah. I kept saying that. "He seems so young." I know he was supposed to be in his mid-twenties, but I kept thinking of him as 18 or so. He seemed... unformed.

he's a frightened boy, out of his depth, trying to seem in control, trying to keep his shit together.

I love it that Jack saw this, and gave him support.

I think there's a lot of father/son in their relationship. It's pretty much a Jungian playground.

I agree absolutely. Jack as mentor and nurturer.

I wonder, in his long life, if he's done as much for any other lover.

What a good question! I'd like to think so.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

…And Paolini is a rubbish novelist, so who cares what he thinks?!

Immortality would be fun if you also got eternal youth and enhanced healing powers (like dear Raoul here). No-one wants to be a Struldbrugg. I think vampirism is rather fun. Indeed, I'm currently toying with ideas for a vampire story.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

…And Paolini is a rubbish novelist, so who cares what he thinks?!


I wondered about that! Forgive me, but the quote sounded a bit to me like something from a second-rate (or third-rate) writer or thinker, which is one of the reasons it caught my attention. The quote before that was from T.S. Eliot, which I totally love - and therefore had no argument with.

Immortality would be fun if you also got eternal youth and enhanced healing powers (like dear Raoul here). No-one wants to be a Struldbrugg.

Oh, absolutely! The kind of immortality which goes with instant healing of wounds and imperviousness to age or disease. Like Methos, Captain Jack Harkness, or Wolverine. (Though we don't know to what extent Wolvie is immortal, I think.)

I'm currently toying with ideas for a vampire story.

Wonderful! Go for it!

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I wondered about that! Forgive me, but the quote sounded a bit to me like something from a second-rate (or third-rate) writer or thinker, which is one of the reasons it caught my attention. The quote before that was from T.S. Eliot, which I totally love - and therefore had no argument with.

It struck me as a case of 'scraping the barrel'. I don't think there's any real evidence of any kind of life after death, other than in remaining in the imaginations of the living. (And that is a precarious state: look at the ups and downs of the reputations of some of our mediæval friends! Is it better to be forgotten than misrepresented as some kind of monster, as some novelists have depicted Conrad?) I like mummification/relics: that's immortality by becoming an objet d'art!

Oh, absolutely! The kind of immortality which goes with instant healing of wounds and imperviousness to age or disease. Like Methos, Captain Jack Harkness, or Wolverine. (Though we don't know to what extent Wolvie is immortal, I think.)

Indeed! One thing I like about Raoul is that he's also managed to acquire a very elegant lifestyle (own castle, tapestries, posh car, international think-tanks). Probably very careful investments over 700 years! A few centuries can be good for your savings (all the interest!).

Wonderful! Go for it!

Thanks! I'm thinking of using the idea of 'saints'' incorrupt corpses and relics in a vampire context.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's any real evidence of any kind of life after death, other than in remaining in the imaginations of the living.

I've certainly heard strange stories and witnessed strange things - my mother was a spiritualist, and though I don't subscribe to the spiritualist interpretation of life after death, there were some eye-opening things going on. Calling it 'life after death' doesn't clarify anything for me; but life is full of wierdness sometimes.

I don't believe in life after death, or reincarnation either. Despite my own apparent memories of another life, which I can't explain. But I don't want to believe in their objective reality, so I leave it as an unexplained and possibly unexplainable psychological quirk.

And that is a precarious state: look at the ups and downs of the reputations of some of our mediæval friends! Is it better to be forgotten than misrepresented as some kind of monster, as some novelists have depicted Conrad?

I would say that most people of the middle ages have an undeserved bad rep because the age is so unsympathetically perceived by our contemporaties. "Crusaders! Evil, unclean war-mongers!" they cry.

I like mummification/relics: that's immortality by becoming an objet d'art!

Gad, yes. I keep thinking of St. Agnes, the only example of such things I have seen. Beautiful and strange.

I'm thinking of using the idea of 'saints'' incorrupt corpses and relics in a vampire context.

I like it.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

my mother was a spiritualist

WAS she! *gloms* There's a Spiritualist Church a block away from me, and I've always wondered what it's about. I have a very stupid impression of Ouija boards and seances...

I'd go to a service and satisfy my curiosity that way, but I hate being pounced (and it's bad form to tell people you think their religion is a curiosity...).

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

It's pretty spurious, to be frank: derived from some of the odder behavioural obsessions of the Victorians, but only really took off because of the large number of people with unresolved grief after WW1.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's a great deal of weirdness and strangeness. And I don't subscribe to the religion in the least, which seemed like an odd byway of Christianity.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

And traditional Christianity is barking enough as it is…

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Just so. Spiritualism is really quite tame and sensible compared to a lot of it.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I don't know. If you're going to claim to converse with the dead, it makes more sense to be wonderfully wacky and shamanistic, not as suburban Edwardian as spiritualism seems to be.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's all in the sense of style. I kind of like the arcane steampunk implications, though wacky shamanism has its appeal too.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There's a Spiritualist Church a block away from me, and I've always wondered what it's about. I have a very stupid impression of Ouija boards and seances...

Not so stupid. They do use that kind of thing, though it isn't particularly arcane. I found it interesting in its way but, once I got used to it, no more appealing than other religions. Still - there were interesting people there, and some quite fascinating experiences.

The most interesting spiritual church I went to was in London. I don't know how much they're alike or different from place to place.

My mother was an exceedingly interesting person.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I've certainly heard strange stories and witnessed strange things - my mother was a spiritualist, and though I don't subscribe to the spiritualist interpretation of life after death, there were some eye-opening things going on. Calling it 'life after death' doesn't clarify anything for me; but life is full of wierdness sometimes.

I've had some strange experiences too, but there's nothing in them that can't be explained by psychological and environmental factors. All of these things are natural phenomena. Spiritualist mediums often use a lot of cold reading techniques, too.

Despite my own apparent memories of another life, which I can't explain. But I don't want to believe in their objective reality, so I leave it as an unexplained and possibly unexplainable psychological quirk.

Cryptomnesia covers a lot of so-called 'past life' memories; and if you have an active imagination, that too feeds into it.

I keep thinking of St. Agnes, the only example of such things I have seen. Beautiful and strange.

Some of them are bones embedded in beautiful life-size wax dolls. I find them fascinating and strange. I'm currently a little in lust/love with a couple of beautiful, doomed female 'saints': fragile young women who desperately needed help and rescuing, but were trapped in a religious mind-set and religious practices than contributed to destroying them physically and mentally. (And some of the more elaborate martyrdom tales in the Legenda Aurea make me think that de Voragine had a rampant h/c complex!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

All of these things are natural phenomena.

Oh, I agree; ditto UFOs (where the operative word is "unexplained") and many things in our physical world we haven't a clue about yet. So people tend to fill in the gaps with guesses.

Cryptomnesia covers a lot of so-called 'past life' memories

Yes. Strangeness. I'm not sure putting a word to it makes me understand the phenomenon; not that I need to understand it.

fragile young women who desperately needed help and rescuing, but were trapped in a religious mind-set and religious practices than contributed to destroying them physically and mentally

There has been a lot of that sort of thing. Not always with girls, but they seemed to be prone to it.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Cryptomnesia is fascinating: unconsciously remembering things that you've read or seen, and consciously believe you've forgotten. In some people, it's as if they have been writing fic in their unconscious: they take a minor character from a novel or film and weave a narrative around them.

There has been a lot of that sort of thing. Not always with girls, but they seemed to be prone to it.

Yes: organised religion is particularly bad for women.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Cryptomnesia is fascinating: unconsciously remembering things that you've read or seen, and consciously believe you've forgotten.

The brain does such weird and amazing things.

organised religion is particularly bad for women.

I don't see that as getting better, either.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I don't see that as getting better, either.

The Abrahamic threesome (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) have been pretty pathetic for women, with Hezekiah and co banning the character of Yahweh's wife, Asherah, and cutting down and burning the wooden figures of her.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

One of many reasons for me not to like them.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup. The idea that (if one is to have them at all) you could have Daddy God without Mummy God was regarded as idiotic by the early civilisations that created these characters. To remove the female principle for political reasons (as Hezekiah seems to have done) goes against nature, and indeed a lot of ordinary people kept little ceramic Asherah dolls in their homes: simple figures holding out large breasts.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Strikes me as appalling, both sexist and skewed.

Mrs God

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Here is an ivory relief of Asherah (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/38192/4304/Asherah-detail-from-an-ivory-box-from-Minat-al-Bayda), the 'Queen of Heaven'. Her hairstyle and costume remind me a bit of the lovely Minoan goddesses.

Re: Mrs God

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Lovely! What is she holding? Feathers? It looks like bananas, but can't be..!

The skirt looks delightfully Minoan.

Re: Mrs God

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I think she may be feeding leaves to the goats. Here's a more typical Asherah doll (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Asherah.jpg).

Re: Mrs God

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think she may be feeding leaves to the goats.

That would make sense. Nice image.

Re: Mrs God

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yes!
And yes, the images are lovely. (I like a decent degree of buxomness in a woman!)

[auriaephiala.livejournal.com]

Which Conrad? I presume you don't mean the (19th/20th-century) novelist?

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Conrad of Montferrat (c. 1145-92). 12C Piemontese all-round hunk and King of Jerusalem. Fajrdrako and I are long-term fans of his. I wrote most of his Wikipedia page, if you want to meet him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

No. Conrad of Montferrat, the 12th century nobleman and who almost became King of Jerusalem on his marriage to Isabella Plantagenet. There's a picture of him over my computer - remember? He was a heroic man, who has been desecrated by novel-writers.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

He did become king, just didn't live to crowned, poor love!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Unusual situation.