World Enough and Time

I thought of you when I saw that about Jack and the Doctor! :-) So wonderful, both as a character assessment and a career choice for JB.

Of course this make my tummy flutter: "he’s actually fallen for someone". GDL said long ago that Ianto had fallen in love with Jack: now we know it's mutual. I mean, I thought so, but I didn't know so, and just like in a real relationship there's all the difference in the world.

*giddy*

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"It brings out the “human” in him, it brings out more of the empathy because he’s actually fallen for someone and he really cares about somebody. So, it’s really great and I think that’s what makes him warm to other people."

THANK YOU SOMEONE FOR FINALLY GETTING AN ANSWER ABOUT JACK'S FEELINGS FROM JOHN THAT ISN'T HIM JUST GIGGLING MYSTERIOUSLY!! I swear that man, every other time he was asked would just make a vague comment and answer nothing at all. I feel better hearing from the actor's pov on characters more than the writers sometimes as they're a bridge between the writing and the viewer so they can get a line (as GDL has done many times) and tweek it to their own needs. Yay for the actor's touting the horn of the dark-horse/in the shadows relationship having MEANING and being RELEVANT just the same as Gwen and Rhys's pairing does~

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I thought of you when I saw that about Jack and the Doctor! :-)

Big grin. The Captain and the Doctor. My own dymanic duo.

"he’s actually fallen for someone".

Yes; I think it's the first time I've seen that actually articulated by someone on the production team. And past time, too, I'd say.

now we know it's mutual. I mean, I thought so, but I didn't know so, and just like in a real relationship there's all the difference in the world.

I had come to believe that Jack loved Ianto very much, but they hadn't said so, and they hadn't explicitly shown us.

It bodes well for the continuation of their relationship on the show.

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I agree with all of that. If their relationship is central to the show, then it should be clear to us exactly what the relationship is! Jack is surrounded in enough mysteries, past and future; nice to see something we can be sure of in his present.

Not that I doubted he loved Ianto, but so far they've only hinted at that. Lust? Affection? Love? What combinations of what? This makes me understand much better what we're supposed to be seeing, rather than interpreting based on possibilities.

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Yeah, I remember (I think it was in tencrush's lj on one of the many interesting and well-worded bits of meta there) at one point someone saying that if you missed the big kiss scene in To The Last Man then you might still think they were just shagging on the side sans any emotional attachment. Outwardly, Jack doesn't favor Ianto with any Ianto-specific actions that in the group really set him apart which could easily be a separation of private/work and I'm fine with that. Sure, he still flirts with him but Jack flirts with everyone and dances with Gwen on her wedding day in a much more emotional attachment sense than his dance moments later with Ianto (who ranks up there as a thing to bide his time with in that throw away line).

Which is a downright shame as they're two of a five member ensemble cast, one is the lead male, and we don't know how he feels about Ianto. Ianto has been pretty obvious but it's uneven in Mr. Mysterious Harkness keeping his emotions SO damn close to the vest that it's impossible to read him most of the time.

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YES. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YES.

I was thrilled to read that at long damn last.

Ianto is in love with Jack.
Jack is in love with Ianto.
Jack and Ianto are in love. LOVE. LOVE.

Sorted!

Now... if they wouldn't mind showing us...

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I know I'll be struck upside the head for this but honestly, I don't mind if they don't SHOW us them going at it like bunnies in heat (re: Owen and Diane).

My kingdom for a shot of them having downtime late night at the hub so weary after the long day asleep on that tiny little couch together!! We see quite clearly how Gwen and Rhys are in love but are also fond of each other, how they appreciate one another in subtle little moments like Gwen turning to Rhys in the wake of Adrift. Little things like that would make me a very, very contented viewer just by means of characterization~

Less is not more when it makes your viewer confused about whether or not your character is content and loves someone they're with or just using them as filler since the female lead is now married to someone too sweet to encourage her to have an affair.

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if you missed the big kiss scene in To The Last Man then you might still think they were just shagging on the side sans any emotional attachment.

Or if you didn't know Jack well enough to know how important love is to him.

The thing is... Jack's love life is almost always shrouded in ambiguities. He loves often, he seems to love easily. He loved or loves the Doctor and Rose; that is explicit; but we never get the details spelled out.

There are many people he loves apparently deeply but platonically - e.g., Martha. But does that mean he wouldn't have sex with her, if the circumstances were right? He loved Estelle, but it appears he left her without explanation - only to keep in touch with her for the rest of her life. Even the ambiguous UST and warmth of his relationship with Gwen further complicates the issue of Jack's feelings.

I love this, of course. I don't want him to be simple and straightforward. But some of the apparently ambiguity with Ianto seems just unnecessarily confusing. "I came back for you - all of you" is probably a good example. Even in the kiss scene in "To the last man", Jack doesn't directly say "I love you" to Ianto. Why not?

Maybe he'll say it in series 3.

Maybe it's the Doctor Who tradition for the hero never to say it, a in the Doctor's last words to Rose in "Doomsday".

Seems to me that the Gwen/Owen affair got more attention (and explicit explanation) in first series than the Jack/Ianto affair has had yet. And that was basically just an intense sexual fling. Afterwards, they had no qualms about making it very, very clear that Owen was in love with Diane, and how much. No confusion there.

Jack flirts with everyone and dances with Gwen on her wedding day in a much more emotional attachment sense than his dance moments later with Ianto (who ranks up there as a thing to bide his time with in that throw away line).

Yes. Many Jack/Ianto fans took that amiss; I took it as affectionate playfulness, but again... that ambiguity. I couldn't be sure I was right.

When Jack found Ianto alive in "Fragments", I wanted to see a kiss or a hug. There have been many scenes in which I thought a hand-touch or hand-holding would be appropriate. Even with the 'behaving properly on the job' assumption - though personally, I don't see why Jack would hold back at the Hub, which is his home, and the Team his family.

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Hey! You where'd your reply go!?

I am of the same mind as you. Oh God yes, a scene of them as you described, worn out from a bad day and sleeping puppy-pile on the couch. The sex doesn't send me as much as the love. I would adore to see them sheltering in each other.

"Adrift" was cute, but "Adam" was stunning.

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Strange it's gray rather than blue like the other bars around the username and icon o.O *puts out candy to lure reply back*

However I'm oddly hopeful for season 3 considering that being two of the three main characters now they will have to address it somehow. I also have faith in James Moran (who gets extra lumps of love for doing the Captain's Blog) not letting that thread drop considering all the little side comments he stuck in 'Sleeper' with the two of them. Oomphing Ianto back to smarming things up and not letting Jack forget just whose balls are in whose pockets :D

"Adam" was amazing but like other people have pointed out, Jack might have very well reacted the same had Tosh come to him swearing she murdered people. There wasn't enough pure THIS IS THE MAN THAT I AM INVOLVED WITH distinction that wasn't Ianto-to-Jack rather than Jack-to-Ianto... or maybe I'm just picky~

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I don't mind if they don't SHOW us them going at it like bunnies in heat (re: Owen and Diane).

Hrmm. I wouldn't mind. Either way. It's the character-based explicitness I want more than the sexual explicitness, though I'd like both. I'd like to see a lot more hugging, though. And general affection, and spending time together. Laughing and touching like we see all the time with Rhys and Gwen. They don't have to be as demonstrative as Gwen and Rhys, but a little more than we get would be very, very nice.

An episode which disturbed me slightly in this regard was "From Out of the Rain". Ianto and the others go to a movie without telling Jack, or inviting him along - an event Ianto was very excited about. Maybe they couldn't find Jack, maybe he was too busy, but it did make me wonder: wouldn't you think Jack would be the first person Ianto would want to go to a movie with?

Though there was much I liked about that episode, the relationships betweent he main characters seemed all askew to me.

Less is not more when it makes your viewer confused about whether or not your character is content and loves someone they're with or just using them as filler since the female lead is now married to someone too sweet to encourage her to have an affair.

I think they are making several points here, but their lack of clarity just makes it confusing. From what we see on screen, or in the text and the interaction, it would be easy to believe that Jack saw Ianto as his third choice after Gwen and the Doctor, both of whom were unavailable to him.

I think Jack does love Gwen, and I love it that he does. But his love for Ianto should be made more visible, and the extent of it. We've heard him ask Ianto on a date (awkwardly) - have we ever heard either refer to the other as his boyfriend?

I want more mushiness between Jack and Ianto, please.

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More mush please!

I'd like to hear the Declaration from Jack, in a tender moment. Maybe after Great Peril?

Anyway, more Mush.

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ceindreadh.livejournal.com

I agree that I don't need to see them going at it like bunnies, but I want to that they are going at it, albeit offscreen.

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Oh yes yes, don't get me wrong I won't shun a good sex-scene between the two of them :D

And I agree about what you said with "From Out of the Rain" as well. Ianto's going to go see and old-time 1930s style film and doesn't ask the guy who's stuck in the 1940s fashion and bravado? That doesn't make sense but I guess it wouldn't be a very team filled episode if it was just Jack and Ianto from the get go then running around solving things as they did in the rest of that ep. I also heard that several of Ianto's lines were meant to be Gwen's but given to him last minute (which seems silly but then again Hammond's last TW script was all Jack and Gwen as well, so it seems he's best at doing Jack and [insert someone here] plots?).

And Ianto being choice three is always a bit heartbreaking, especially since he was there BEFORE Gwen showed up. However, he still is the one that Jack chose to be with in the end (he turned down the Doctor, he stepped away from Gwen and made sure she went with Rhys) and I'd just like to see some evidence that Jack is HAPPY with that choice he made~

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I'm oddly hopeful for season 3 considering that being two of the three main characters now they will have to address it somehow.

I hope so too. I'm not sure I believe it, but I hope it. I don't see any reason for them not to feature it more. And I can't help suspecting that actors like Barrowman and David-Lloyd are discreet enough to say no more (and no less) about their characters than they are told to. If they have official sanction to say Jack and Ianto love each other, I take that as a hint of things to come. And yes, I have faith in James Moran, who proved he could give the relationship the perfect touch in the Captain's Blog.

In "Adam", the clarity I saw (again) wasn't in Jack's love for Ianto - indeed, I think he would have treated Gwen or Tosh exactly the same way. But I love the trust it showed in Ianto. And I loved the moment where Ianto articulated his love for Jack by saying that Jack brought meaning back into his life.

Bottom line: we've seen Jack treating Ianto like someone he cares about, and someone he likes to have sex with, but we've never seen anything that makes it explicit that he loves him.

And I want to see that.

At the same time, as I've said often enough before, I don't want Jack's love for Ianto to turn into a monogamous marriage-like relationship. Maybe the ambiguity is because of that; maybe they're afraid that if they clearly show that Jack loves Ianto (as he undoubtedly does, IMHO) they'll be committed to backing off on the omnisexuality, the flirting, the other loves and relationships and all the things that make Jack so interesting to me.

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The sex doesn't send me as much as the love. I would adore to see them sheltering in each other.

Much as I love the sex, I agree.

Frankly, I want to see something more romantic between them.

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Disagree about "Adam". To me that read as love, particularly the embrace in your icon there. The way Ianto nuzzles down into Jack's neck; the way Jack holds Ianto gently at the back of his neck, almost like the way you hold a baby. It was so tender, even though they were in such distress.

Moran is my snuggybuggyboobookins for doing the Captain's Blog.

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I love this, of course. I don't want him to be simple and straightforward.

Oh I agree, I doubt Jack would be as much fun if he didn't have such indefinites about him (aside from being a fact in time and all). He's that dark hero very akin to the Doctor in that his backstory is left open so wide and vague yet there are specifics we know in the here and now which is an interesting technique to do with a character. What can I say? Here we are debating him, so the writers are doing something right :D

And I'm probably bitter about the Something Borrowed (which I keep accidentally writing Something Bothered!) line cause the reviews I read prior to seeing were rather upset and it might have colored my perception. I'm the first to say my viewing of things is NOT the definite interpretation and more than not I'll change my opinion based on other people's views n possible supporting info~ But it's another example of being vague and in that ambiguity it kinda makes Jack look like an ass~ Which is the last thing that I want from a character that I'm rather fond of, personally.

When Jack found Ianto alive in "Fragments", I wanted to see a kiss or a hug.

YES! SOMETHING! Something more than the chest pat and nod, lets recall that this is someone who Jack's been on-off with for what, over a year now? Ianto is consistently the one showing more concern for Jack in dialog or actions than Jack does.

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That's true, I'll take it back about the hug but again look at which of the two is the more outward expressing of comfort-need-affection in that. Ianto is the one shown more than Jack as being with someone he cares for/needs than Jack who hugged Owen in End of Days much in the same way when he was upset. I'm not trying to burst bubbles, it's just lets see something Jack c'moooooon!

Moran is my snuggybuggyboobookins for doing the Captain's Blog.

Even he agrees with the sentimentality of their relationship like in the post-Adrift blog where Jack says that he clung to Ianto for several hours after being traumatized by Jonah's screaming. He gets that there needs to be more emotional depth and we're lucky to have the Captain's Blog (which should be considered canon especially since an official writer did it!)!!

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I'd like to hear the Declaration from Jack, in a tender moment. Maybe after Great Peril?

This would be fun as a fic challenge - just when and how does Jack tell Ianto he loves him? For Ianto, it would be a significant moment. Even if he knows. But he didn't seem to have much sense of it in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang". Since then - well, the relationship has grown.

What I would most like would be a moment like you describe, perhaps after peril. But I can also see a sort of miscommunication dialogue:

Ianto: Why should I do that? [Doesn't matter what 'that' is.]
Jack: Because I love you.
Ianto: You love me?
Jack: Well, of course I do. Hadn't you noticed?
Ianto: You never said.
Jack: I didn't? Okay, I'll say it now. I love you.
Ianto: [Melts in mush.]

I can also imagine Jack saying it to a third party. Or a third party saying it to Ianto....

Gwen: He loves you very much, you know.
Ianto: He does?
Gwen: Well of course, he does! What did you think?
Ianto: I thought it was all sex.
Gwen: No way. He adores you.
Ianto: But...
Gwen: Okay, it's sex too, this is Jack we're talking about. But he loves you. I can see it when he looks at you. He needs you.
Ianto: I know that. No one else presses his suits the right way.

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Here we are debating him, so the writers are doing something right :D

So true! Like the Doctor, he is utterly interesting even in the things we don't know about him.

which I keep accidentally writing Something Bothered

LOL. A while back I saw someone refer to the episodes "Something Blue" and "From Out of the Blue" when in fact neither episode has 'blue' in the title at all.

I'm probably bitter about the Something Borrowed ... line cause the reviews I read prior to seeing were rather upset and it might have colored my perception.

Yes. I hadn't read anyone's comments before - here I am, being always a stickler for spoiler-avoidance. And I thought the line was funny. But keep in mind too that much as I love the romance between Jack and Ianto, I love the Jack/Gwen relationship too, and my favourite pairing is Jack/Doctor, and I'm happy with just about Jack/Anyone. Or at least Jack and a lot of 'anyones'. Not that I have any problem with Jack/Ianto in any way, except that I find the relationship unexciting.

And why do I find it unexciting? For all these reasons we're talking about. Jack's feelings are unclear and inexplicit and ambiguous, we don't see the intensity, we don't see the mush, we don't see much about it at all except the relationship (whatever it is) is there.

It's as if the writers are taking it for granted. Which isn't very compelling.

So I was happy with the Jack/Ianto/Gwen love-triangle implications in "Something Borrowed", including Jack's over-casual remark lumping Ianto in with the pizza.

And... you know what did bother me in "Something Borrowed"? I don't think I've said this aloud before. It bothered me that Ianto and Jack didn't go home together, or at least, back to the Hub together.

Why not?

Have we ever seen Jack and Ianto together when it was clearly not for work? Obviously the picture is skewed becuase they technically are on duty 24/7, but do we ever just see them hanging out together because they want to be together? (The sex scene in "Adrift" was still at the Hub, though clearly a moment of recreation and relaxation rather than work.) We never saw the date suggested in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang". I can't think of any scene where it was clear that Jack and Ianto were in each other's company just because they wanted to be. And that is what I want to see.

it kinda makes Jack look like an ass~ Which is the last thing that I want from a character that I'm rather fond of, personally.

Agreed.

lets recall that this is someone who Jack's been on-off with for what, over a year now?

And look at the warm reaction Martha got in "Reset", or even Mickey in "Journey's End". it seems Jack is demonstrative with everyone else except Ianto! I'd say he was trying extra hard to be discreet, but that makes no sense because it even applies when they are alone together. They talk at a distance, not snuggling like (for example) we see Gwen and Rhys doing.

Ianto is consistently the one showing more concern for Jack in dialog or actions than Jack does.

Yes. Doesn't seem right.

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Ianto's going to go see and old-time 1930s style film and doesn't ask the guy who's stuck in the 1940s fashion and bravado?

Yes, that's another point. Jack gets all nostalgic for the early 2th century on any excuse - who would be more likely to want to see old films of Cardiff in a renovated old movie theatre? Jack probably used to go there when it was a thriving first-run house for the silent movies of the 20s! Excluding him from their expedition doesn't make a lot of sense.

My thought at the time - and I still think it - is that P.J. Hammond writes Torchwood scripts without any feel for the characters at all. It could have been a script for The Outer Limits or X-Files or any other kind of semi-supernatural show. There were moments of warmth and sentiment, but they were directed to strangers - the little boy who survived, for instance - not for each other. And now I think of it, the same could be said for "Small Worlds", where the scene of tearful caring was in Jack's love for Estelle, someone we'd never seen before and will never see again.

However, he still is the one that Jack chose to be with in the end (he turned down the Doctor, he stepped away from Gwen and made sure she went with Rhys

Since I love the Jack/Doctor relationship, I like to interpret it that the Doctor abandoned Jack first, and Jack isn't about to force himself into the Doctor's life: he's making a life for himself, a life that involves saving the Earth, a task he takes very seriously. (More than the Doctor actually does, I think, though that's a debate for another time.) So there's no way it's just that Jack chose Ianto when he could have had the Doctor; it's a complex decision on his part, to fulfil obligations, to cherish the love he has with someone who needs him much, much more than the Doctor does.

Since I love the Jack/Gwen relationship, I don't particularly want to think there, either, that he really doesn't love her. I think he does, but not possessively; he knows she loves Rhys, he knows they are monogamous (or at least, their society is - Gwen herself isn't, but that doesn't change the issue). So he sets things up for her to be happy with Rhys. It isn't a very stable situation, I think, which gives it some of its thrill and sparkle. And Jack doesn't seduce everyone in sight, despite his reputation.

I think Jack loves Ianto very much. I just wish they'd both show it more. I wish they'd show them being happy together more - just happy with each other's company.

I know this isn't the Jack and Ianto Romance Show, but we got more with Owen and Diane (or Owen and Gwen, or even Owen and Katy). And of course - as I keep saying - Gwen and Rhys, who really do act as if they're in love.

I wish "Adrift", for example, had been from Ianto's point of view, rather than Gwen's. I can't think of any reason it couldn't have been.

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To me that read as love, particularly the embrace in your icon there.

Well, I love that embrace. And the kiss on the forehead - that's what really gets to me. I love the sense of trust and faith Jack shows for Ianto.

But (as with so often) there's something missing.... It's lovely but not sexy-passionate, mushy but - Jack seems quite parental towards Ianto in that entire sequence. Nurturing. Which is nice, and loving, but - the sens that thay are lovers doesn't come through for me here. Even when they are acting loving.

Tender - definitely. But Jack is tender to many people. Jack, god help us, is tender to Owen.

Moran is my snuggybuggyboobookins for doing the Captain's Blog.

Moran is the second-best of all the Torchwood writers, I think. He really has a feel for the characters and their interactions that some of the others just don't. Give them man more scripts to write!

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I think you've made a good point here: that it doesn't matter really what we see or even what we hear - what matters is what we know.

For instance, I thought I understood Jack's feelings for the Doctor and Rose in "Boom Town" perfectly, without a word being said by anyone. (Except some casual flirting and teasing.)

I've never had that kind of "I know what I'm seeing" feeling in Torchwood in the scenes with Ianto and Jack.

In a way, I like this. So much scope for fanfic.

In another way, I don't like it: there's an imbalance there, and I want to know what my heroes feel about their significant relationships.

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