Doctor Who: The Doctor's Daughter... (4x06)

[fajrdrako]

I find it a little scary how very much I have been enjoying Doctor Who of late. Sooner or later I am bound to get a disappointment, but for the present - wow.

There were so many good things about this episode I hardly know where to start.

1. Nigel Terry! I love him as a villain. I remember how delighted I was with his villainous role of Gabriel Piton in Highlander.
   
   
2. I thought Georgia Moffat was delightful as Jenny: she had a lot of the characteristics we love about the Doctor - the courage, the ebullience, the love of running, the smile - without his levels of emotional burdens - guilt, skittishness and general fuckedupness. I really thought Jenny was dead; I'm delighted she isn't; will she get some sort of spin-off and have adventures of her own?
   
   And... if she is a Time Lord, why didn't she regenerate? Presumably she wasn't dead at all, and they all gave up on her too soon.
   
   
3. Loved the Doctor talking about his family, and the pain of losing them, and his consequent difficulty in accepting Jenny.
   
   
4. Donna was magnificent.
   
   
5. Martha is always magnificent and I'm sorry she has left the Doctor.
   
   
6. Donna wants to stay with the Doctor forever? Shades of Rose. I begin to fear for Donna.
   
   
7. Paul Kasey was Hath Peck. I knew he had to be in there somewhere!
   
   
8. I tried to think of a good reason for the planet to be called Messaline. Couldn't.
   
   
9. The problem with the people of Messaline is that they lived with oral history - corrupted stories. Had they no literacy? No books? No recordings by the people who sent them there to tell them what they ought to be doing? At least they remembered (dimly) "the source". I suppose the point is that they were so messed up by their war that they lost all sense.
   
   
10. Another episode about bringing new life to a planet, and terraforming it, and war associated with the process.
    
    
11. Loved the scene where the Doctor aims the gun at Cobb but doesn't shoot him. In fact, I totally loved the whole pacifist angle in this episode - as I have been loving it all this series. Love the Doctor's disgust with guns.
    
    
12. Another theme we have been seeing over and over is the theme of choice - having choice over one's actions. Last week the Doctor made a point of giving the Sontarans a choice as to their fate even at the risk of his own life, and Luke Rattigan made the choice that saved the world. This week the Doctor showed Jenny that she had a choice whether to kill or not. Hmm. The Doctor made a point of giving Nanny Foster a choice whether to return to the Adipose or not. In Pompeii, the choice is the Doctor's: whether to kill the people of Pompeii or let the Earth be destroyed. In "The Planet of the Ood", the point was made that by severing one of their brains, the Ood lost the ability to choose not to serve others. So - have all this series all had an element of "choice" central to the theme or plot? I'd say yes, or at least... mostly.
    
    
13. Goodl ine from Donna about the Doctor: "He saves planets, rescues civilisations, defeats terrible creatures ... and runs a lot. Seriously, there is an outrageous amount of running involved." I also loved: "Not impossible, just unlikely."
    

Comments

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

And... if she is a Time Lord, why didn't she regenerate? Presumably she wasn't dead at all, and they all gave up on her too soon.

Well some people are saying that as she was only in that body for less than 15 hours she could heal without regenerating like with the Doctor's hand. Others say it was the terraforming that did it. I kinda like both ideas but she might just regenerate differently due to the cloning process, who knows?

Donna wants to stay with the Doctor forever? Shades of Rose. I begin to fear for Donna.

And he told Rose she could stay forever until he sent her home twice when it got too dangerous, he never went back for Sarah Jane, I don't think he planned on going back for Rose "for her own good" either. Of course something really bad has got to happen before Donna or the Doctor leave the other so I fear for them both.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

9. They haven't had time! They've only been there for about a week! They're "born", they fight, they die. If it isn't something they're born knowing, all they have to go by is, effectively, gossip.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Nigel Terry! I love him as a villain. I remember how delighted I was with his villainous role of Gabriel Piton in Highlander.

Gah, that's where I recognised him from! Thank you, that was bugging me.

Sooner or later I am bound to get a disappointment

For me this was the disappointing episode. Bear in mind this may have been affected by my failing a driving test in the morning and so being in a bad mood already, but I was very unimpressed with some of it. I thought the plot was a bit implausible and the resolution was rushed - they needed more time to really make things hang together.

I thought Georgia Moffat was delightful as Jenny: she had a lot of the characteristics we love about the Doctor - the courage, the ebullience, the love of running, the smile

Hmm. I would have liked it if she had shown inheritance of some more interesting traits from the Doctor than bounciness. I agree she was brave but since the creation of the soldiers apparently taught them how to fight and how to die, I'm not sure if that was from him or part of the brainwashing. I would have liked his acceptance of her a lot more if the sudden hug and enthusiasm for her had been prompted by her showing some of his genius intelligence, for example, rather than her ability to backflip.

I really thought Jenny was dead

I honestly would have preferred it if she had been. It was obvious from the beginning that she was going to be a casualty and I could have taken the blatant emotional manipulation of that a lot better if they had followed through on it instead of cheating right at the end.

And... if she is a Time Lord, why didn't she regenerate?

Exactly. She was doing the release of vortex energy thing the Doctor did in The Christmas Invasion after all.

Loved the Doctor talking about his family, and the pain of losing them, and his consequent difficulty in accepting Jenny.


Donna was magnificent.


Martha is always magnificent and I'm sorry she has left the Doctor.

All good bits, I agree. I thought DT was also really good in the death scene.

they were so messed up by their war that they lost all sense

Okay, this is the bit that really bugged me about the ending. They've run through so many generations that nobody alive can even remember the start of the war, all each side knows about the other is that they are the hated enemy who must be killed for them to survive and the birth process fills them up with how to fight and die in battle - and yet all the Doctor has to do is show them a glowing globe and say "stop it" and they all lay down their weapons and become pacifists? Yes, because ingrained and reinforced hatred and prejudice against an enemy and a culture based around war is just that easy to erase. WTF?

Another theme we have been seeing over and over is the theme of choice

Interesting. I hand't really noticed until you pointed them all out, but it definitely seems to be there.

Donna wants to stay with the Doctor forever? Shades of Rose. I begin to fear for Donna.

I would say the reason is different though. I always felt for Rose it was about being with the Doctor first and the adventuring second - I think for Donna it is very definitely about having adventures and seeing new things.

[gillo]

And... if she is a Time Lord, why didn't she regenerate? Presumably she wasn't dead at all, and they all gave up on her too soon.

My guess is that the

Genesis machine

Source carried with it the power of life and that's why she breathed out those wisps of light just before her eyes opened.

My husband annoyed our daughter hugely by correctly predicting both her death and revival.

I tried to think of a good reason for the planet to be called Messaline. Couldn't.

All I could think of was the Shakespeare connection, but it doesn't make any sense really.

Good line from Donna about the Doctor: "He saves planets, rescues civilisations, defeats terrible creatures ... and runs a lot. Seriously, there is an outrageous amount of running involved." I also loved: "Not impossible, just unlikely."

I adored the "outrageous amount of running" line, and the way Jenny reacted so positively to it.

So, he's technically not the last of the Time Lords now, whether or not the master's ring leads to a regeneration there.

It was utterly bonkers and the plot was as full of holes as a sieve, but it was enormous fun.

ETA:

Even though she's not related, I love the fact that the director was a Troughton!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that was bugging me.

I didn't recognize him at first - but I noticed how good he was. Then figured it out.

Bear in mind this may have been affected by my failing a driving test in the morning and so being in a bad mood already

Oh no! Sorry to hear it.

For me, the only episode of series 4 I'm not too fond of is "The Fires of Pompeii". And it was all right. I just didn't get the same kick out of it.

I thought the plot was a bit implausible

The compressed historical time, you mean? Well, yes, implausible, but that doesn't bother me: lots of Doctor Who premises are implausible and I like the way they just go with the flow.

I agree she was brave but since the creation of the soldiers apparently taught them how to fight and how to die, I'm not sure if that was from him or part of the brainwashing.

Programming - yes. I took it all to be programming based on the Doctor's genes, so it was all a bit of her culture mixed with his idiosyncratic individualism, and the combination sort of cancelled itself out and allowed her to become herself, with some free will to change.

I would have liked his acceptance of her a lot more if the sudden hug and enthusiasm for her had been prompted by her showing some of his genius intelligence, for example, rather than her ability to backflip.

I liked the back flip thing, because it was something the Doctor couldn't do. Or wouldn't. Sort of like kissing the guard. He liked it that she had talents of her own, even though she had a lot in common with him.

She was doing the release of vortex energy thing the Doctor did in The Christmas Invasion after all.

So you'd expect one thing, and get another - I like that, that she was different, inplying that the Time Lord picture is all very variable complex. And I like it that he didn't notice or know - didn't expect her to live.

I thought DT was also really good in the death scene.

I like the way they are characterizing him this season. I don't know if Tennant's acting is getting better, or if they're just writing the Doctor to be very interesting.

Yes, because ingrained and reinforced hatred and prejudice against an enemy and a culture based around war is just that easy to erase. WTF?

Yeah, it was a bit much. I thought it was like - it was as if the people in Battlestar Galactica (both humans and Cylons) find Earth, and suddenly the show situation is altered. They don't know what the new situation is, and the Doctor tells them - he rewrites their programming, essentially. They have a new reality and he gives them a new way to imagine it so they can dispose of their old way of thinking.

Hopefully they can establish longer lifetimes.

I always felt for Rose it was about being with the Doctor first and the adventuring second - I think for Donna it is very definitely about having adventures and seeing new things.

Yes, their approach and motivation is different. But the result is the same. And I'm not sure they're as different as they would like to think they are.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

some people are saying that as she was only in that body for less than 15 hours she could heal without regenerating like with the Doctor's hand.

That's a point. And we were shown the hand again, just to remind us of it.

I kinda like both ideas but she might just regenerate differently due to the cloning process, who knows?

For all we know it may not be exactly the same each time for each Time Lord, either.

Of course something really bad has got to happen before Donna or the Doctor leave the other so I fear for them both.

Indeed. All those points are true.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My guess is that the Genesis machine Source carried with it the power of life and that's why she breathed out those wisps of light just before her eyes opened.

That makes sense to me. And why not?

My husband annoyed our daughter hugely by correctly predicting both her death and revival.

Hee - good for him!

he's technically not the last of the Time Lords now, whether or not the master's ring leads to a regeneration there.

No, technically he isn't. And - really, I can't see that anything (except his own emotional troubles) is stopping him from having more offspring, whether by natural means or cloning. But I can understand his fears - not justs the reminder of past loss of his family, but the reminder of what happened to the Time Lords and his role in it and the implications.

It was utterly bonkers and the plot was as full of holes as a sieve, but it was enormous fun.Even though she's not related, I love the fact that the director was a Troughton!

That was fun, yes. And Jenny a real Doctor's daughter. Makes a nice set of patterns.

It also brings to mind... how very many actors have been in that show over the past few generations, and how very many people have worked on it.

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

For all we know it may not be exactly the same each time for each Time Lord, either.

Well they never bothered to explain Romana's weird regeneration either. Well it's a a bit before I've seen but I'm pretty sure they didn't

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well they never bothered to explain Romana's weird regeneration either.

Given that when the regeneration happens they don't seem to know exactly what to expect - yes, I can see it being a slightly unpredictable process.

I wonder how, in evolutionary terms, the regeneration process started. Is it something the Time Lords invented/created - a modification of their species? Or a lucky accident of nature?

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

I wonder how, in evolutionary terms, the regeneration process started

Well given that I've looked it up before (so sad I know) it was originally called a gift of the TARDIS by the Doctor so maybe it has something to do with their original expose to the time vortex?

But then again they can bring back the Master with a full set of regenerations so they could have invented it like the "regeneration machine" in series 3 with Lazarus and it stuck in their DNA

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it was originally called a gift of the TARDIS by the Doctor so maybe it has something to do with their original expose to the time vortex?

Yes - some sort of a side-effect of studying the Time Vortex. Or that gave them the clues they needed to create (or re-create) the effect.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Gah, that's where I recognised him from! Thank you, that was bugging me.
Me too - I'm glad I wasn't the only one

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I find Nigel Terry very striking in every role he takes, but usually not easy to recognize.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

13 - best line ever :D
2 - I'm going with a combination of everything - not quite Timelord (obviously) so the terraforming do-hickey had a part in boosting her 'regeneration' gene (if you will) and her appearance didn't change simply because she is a clone.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I think the first I ever saw him in must have been The Bill ( a long running UK police drama) but despite that (and I have no idea why) I always think he looks like he should be dressed as the Big White Hunter and carrying a bull whip...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think the first I ever saw him in must have been The Bill ( a long running UK police drama)Excalibur, where he, when young, played King Arthur. I didn't like that movie and it was a bad start. But I loved him in Highlander - I recall that episode well, and with fondness. And I look forward to him in Spooks and Foyle's War.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I always forget to watch Foyle's war but whenever I do catch an episode I like it a lot.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

not quite Timelord (obviously)

I'd argue that as a clone of the Doctor, she is a Time Lord, by any definition that would mean anything. But she's modified by her environment... making her at least a rather individualistic and unusual Time Lord. Yes, maybe the clonishness affected her physiology - perhaps the person-replicating machine didn't understand the regeneration mechanism and so eliminated it. Or changed it.

Interesting that the machine made her female. I couldn't see an obvious reason for that, except that perhaps they were trying to keep male/female ratios equal on the planet.

Foyle's War

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I just started watching it now that I'm spending so much time in my own living room. Enjoying it very much, I must say. The writing is good.

Re: Foyle's War

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Glad you're enjoying it - shame about being cooped up indoors though ♥

Re: Foyle's War

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well - at least I have good things to watch!

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

perhaps the person-replicating machine didn't understand the regeneration mechanism and so eliminated it
I don't think it can have totally eliminated it or I don't think even the 'genesis' widget would have healed her. And yes I'm pretty sure that the 'replicators' must have been programmed to churn out a certain number of males and females regardless of the sex of the donor.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the 'replicators' must have been programmed to churn out a certain number of males and females regardless of the sex of the donor.

This seems likely. It'd be fun to see what the planet is like in another hundred years.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I agree with almost all your points and still found the episode off-puttingly predictable.

Love the Doctor's disgust with guns.

In isolation, yes, but he's always found other ways to create/generate/allow violence, so I do find it a tad hypocritical. [/understatement] Also the line about his picture in the dictionary under "genocide"? Yeah, I'm betting the caption isn't "over my dead body", it's "repeat offender"!

I didn't hate the episode so much as find it both rushed and boring. I will say that I find this series more consistent than the previous two, so that even the lower-level episodes like this don't bring out the hate like "42" or the Cybermen. "Fires of Pompeii" was actually my favourite, this year although there were some eye-rolling things about that. This episode could have been SOOOO much worse; but it could have been better.

Poor Martha. She just can't get a decent storyline to save her soul! Almost literally.

But still, basically, I think it comes down to - everything is better with Donna.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Oh no! Sorry to hear it

Thank you. I had some rotten luck - it was a one in a million situation, and right at the beginning too. I knew I had failed so I just stopped because I was upset. Now it's just frustrating.

The compressed historical time, you mean? Well, yes, implausible

Yes, a bit, but more the ridiculously easy resolution that I talked about below.

I don't know if Tennant's acting is getting better, or if they're just writing the Doctor to be very interesting

I think the latter. Didn't they talk somewhere about the first few series being more the companion's story and that they were moving more to making it about the Doctor?

They don't know what the new situation is, and the Doctor tells them - he rewrites their programming, essentially.

Yeah, it's just they disposed of their old way of thinking so fast I just couldn't accept it as likely at all.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Didn't they talk somewhere about the first few series being more the companion's story and that they were moving more to making it about the Doctor?

Did they? Well, if so, I think it was a very good decision. I'm not sure if it's entirely visible - we stil have a lot of Donna's point of view - but they've definitely added something to the Doctor's sense of involvement. Which is very, very good, I'd say.

I just couldn't accept it as likely at all.

I'd say: Not likely but not impossible, and that was one of the themes of the story.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

still found the episode off-puttingly predictable.

I can't argue that it wasn't predictable. I didn't mind in the least.

he's always found other ways to create/generate/allow violence, so I do find it a tad hypocritical

Oh, definitely, and I like the paradox - generally speaking. I liked it here. I do wish they'd face the issue a little more directly sometimes, but I suspect they will not. And I liked the 'genocide' issue because we know the Doctor is responsible for a double genocide at least. So I don't look at it and say 'hypocrite' as much as I say, "This man knows whereof he speaks. It's the voice of experience."

I didn't like the "Rise of the Cybermen" episode as much as "Daleks of Manhatten" or (heaven forbid) "Last of the Time Lords". I liked "42", and I suspect I may be the only fan who did - not that it's a favourite, but I found it a pleasure compared to the aforementioned.

I don't know why I found "The Fires of Pompeii" substandard - boring, perhaps? I didn't feel engaged in the action or particularly moved by the climax, by which I mean, the Doctor's pushing of the switch.

I think my favourite this year so far has been "The Poision Sky", but I might have trouble articulating the reasons for that.

But after the horrendous difficulties I had with "Last of the Time Lords", this series has been a place where I can comparatively relax and enjoy. I still miss the articulate artistry of the first series.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

The story was what it was -- a bog standard Classic DW plot with new series emotion and great performances.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I would say that's a good assessment.

[laurab1.livejournal.com]

Isn't there some bit of Old School that says the women have control over their regenerations?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard that bit of lore - cool, if true. And it would apply to Jenny, presumably.

Radio Commentary

[raissad.livejournal.com]

You'll enjoy this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/sunday/

Re: Radio Commentary

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Wonderful - thank you!

BBC Says DW Knitting Patterns Are Copyright Infringement

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Remember those cute little knitting patterns we loved so much...

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,25642,23690642-5014239,00.html

Re: BBC Says DW Knitting Patterns Are Copyright Infringement

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Seems draconian of them to attack fannish creativity in this ways. It's the corporate lawyers, I suppose. Idiots.

Re: BBC Says DW Knitting Patterns Are Copyright Infringement

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Here's another article with clarification. I say punish the people who sold them on E-bay, not the person who posted the patterns, unless they're one and the same:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7400268.stm

Re: BBC Says DW Knitting Patterns Are Copyright Infringement

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I suspect the BBC is back-peddling a little. And so they should.