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fajrdrakoBeulah came over tonight, bringing supper with her, and, by a miracle, cans of Kinnie to drink. Yes, Kinnie. Remember how I feared I'd never taste Kinnie again? Never say never.
The perfect medicine.
So we'd got to Buffy 2.07 when I was so rudely interrupted last week, and here I am, at "The Dark Age". More background on Giles: yay!
- Mystery man gets attacked by ghoul who kills him and turns into a puddle of blue goo. Turns out to be a demon Giles consorted with back when he was wild and foolish. I think I would have liked Giles back then.
- I like Ethan, whose villainy seems like the accidental, slippery sort. I still don't like Jenny, though I've nothing really against her - I'm just never happy to see her, and this episode was no exception. I thought she made a terrific demon, though.
- Giles remains wonderful, though sometimes descended to cliché here. I loved his being depressed and dishevelled and Buffy worrying that he was drinking. The 'noise/music' thing was most fun at the end, when Giles 'plays the game' but chooses the Bay City Rollers. I love Giles so much in these 'twist the paradigm' moments.
I also liked his nightmares and the glimpses of his past. - A few demerit points to Xander for insensitivity on the matter when Buffy was upset - this is one of those "Xander in regression" episodes, where he was higher than usual on the 'obnoxious' scale and lower than usual on the 'intelligent' scale.
- Embarassingly, I had to look up who Gavin Rossdale is. I know John Cusack and I can relate to Willow's fantasy. Let's see... instead of sitting alone with a sore foot in Ottawa, I'm on a sunny cliff in Wales, overlooking the ocean with Captain Jack and the Doctor and a full picnic basket, at the site of some ancient castle. Good game.
- Jenny teases Giles about dog-earing and underlining his book. This was funny. On the other hand, I am enough like Giles to share his pain rather acutely. So what was the book? Is Giles a Horatio Hornblower fan or is there a reference I'm missing?
- I liked Detective Winslow. No particular reason. I just did. Loved Cordelia's obtuseness: "I can take a hint! ...What was the hint?" and "Can you help me with a ticket? It's totally bogus. It was a one-way street. I was going one way." On the one hand, it's so unsubtle I squirm. On the other hand, it's still funny.
- Nice (though brief) appearance of Angel.
- What was Ethan looking for in the library? Loved his exchange with Buffy: "But you looked great." And their dialogue:
Buffy: I'll let you know when we're even. What're you doing here?
Ethan: Snooping around.
Buffy: Honesty. Nice touch.
Ethan: It's one of my virtues. ...Not really. - Buffy asks Ethan if he knows Giles and he says, "We go back. Way back." Isn't that another Torchwood line?
- Sadly, whenever they mentioned the Mark of Eyghon I thought of the Eye of Argon. That was unfortunate.
- It's always fun hearing Ethan call Giles "Ripper".
- Willow says, "It's not Egyptian, it's Etruscan mistaken for Egyptian by the design pattern, but any fool can see it predates their iconology." I beg your pardon? That's the worst piece of pseudo-Indiana-Jones archeological nonsense I've seen on the show yet. Not a fine moment for Willow but she delivered it well. I did love it when Willow got mad at Xander and Cordelia and became all authoritarian.
- How did Buffy know there was a screw under her bed to cut the ropes on? She couldn't see it or touch it...! Ah well. Slayer powers.
- So Willow risks Angel to save Buffy (and Giles and Ethan) and it works. Good call, Willow. Lucky call.
- Lovely Buffy-Giles conversation:
Giles: I never wanted you to see that side of me.
Buffy: I'm not gonna lie to you. It was scary. I'm so used to you being a grownup, and then I find out that you're a person.
Giles: Most grownups are.
Buffy: Who would've thought?
Giles: Some are even, uh... shortsighted, foolish people.
Buffy: So, after all this time, we finally find out that we do have something in common. Which, apart from being a little weird, is kind of okay.
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:55 am (UTC)What is it you think you're missing -- I'm not getting what it is you... think you don't get. ;)
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 02:58 am (UTC)Yes. I'm pretty much expecting that now. I just like it so much better when he's on an upswing.
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 03:02 am (UTC)I must not be understanding what you're asking. :D What makes you think he's a Hornblower fan?
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Date: 2008-04-09 03:24 am (UTC)D'OH!
Date: 2008-04-09 03:29 am (UTC)*laughs*
Okay, I just pulled out my DVD and checked the scene. I always assumed it was something by E.M. Forster, maybe "Passage to India", since Jenny described it as romantic and evocative, and Giles said that it was a first edition which belonged to his father (which works with the timeline).
Could have been a Hornblower book, though. ;)
Re: D'OH!
Date: 2008-04-09 03:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 04:01 am (UTC)Turns out to be a demon Giles consorted with back when he was wild and foolish. I think I would have liked Giles back then.
Ah. You are so going to like "Band Candy."
I thought she made a terrific demon, though.
I fairly choked on not giving away-- um, you'll be plenty happy a little further on, I think. And, um, cute line.
Let's see... instead of sitting alone with a sore foot in Ottawa, I'm on a sunny cliff in Wales, overlooking the ocean with Captain Jack and the Doctor and a full picnic basket, at the site of some ancient castle. Good game.
Let's see... instead of sitting at the library after an awful day at work trying to defend my fellow workers from management's whims (gad!!! don't ask)(but I kinda came out on top -- and, thus, am now in the dog-house, yay me), I'd prefer to be... excavating my family castle in the south of Wales, only to hear lovely laughter and witty banter and turn around to see you, Captain Jack, and the Doctor sitting there with your picnic. And you invite me over. Which I do, after washing the soil of my ancestors off my hands and face [hee].
So what was the book? Is Giles a Horatio Hornblower fan or is there a reference I'm missing?
I don't think the exact identity of the book was important; I think it was more important that we knew that it was something Giles held dear and regarded as a family treasure. Sometimes to put in all the details blurs the overall picture, seems to be the thinking. Hm?
What was Ethan looking for in the library?
I think he may have been trying to catch Giles unawares and take him back to the shop, to tie him to the table as bait as he later did to Buffy, and obliterate his own tattoo then too. I think that was his first plan. Taking Buffy then became the back-up plan. Just a thought.
Also, it gave the chance for the delicious banter.
Sadly, whenever they mentioned the Mark of Eyghon I thought of....
That is one flaw in this show. Too many cockamamie names of things that almost sound like something else, or else sound like badly-conceived foreign cartoon characters.
I beg your pardon? That's the worst piece of pseudo-Indiana-Jones archeological nonsense I've seen on the show yet. Not a fine moment for Willow but she delivered it well.
Oh, no, no! But it was supposed to be! It was so bad it was good!! That was the whole idea. First of all, what sixteen-year-old can read Etruscan? (Who on this planet, for that matter, can read Etruscan?) It was so bad it was good. Well, I liked it.
How did Buffy know there was a screw under her bed to cut the ropes on?
Seemed to me that she felt the rope bump past it, and in making the rope bump on it more times, she realized that it was jagged-edged and could serve to saw through the rope. It's a tactile thing. It actually is something that I could have determined, with no visual input and with only second-hand tactile. Guess you'll have to trust me on that.
I also loved that last dialogue between Buffy and Giles. They did very well, banter-wise, in this entire episode. Things started to come together well, here. Except, as you say, for that spotty Xander thing... sigh.
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:37 am (UTC)I think he may have been trying to catch Giles unawares and take him back to the shop, to tie him to the table as bait as he later did to Buffy, and obliterate his own tattoo then too. I think that was his first plan. Taking Buffy then became the back-up plan. Just a thought.
Ethan-in-my-head disagrees quite strongly.
He was going to hide behind Ripper. Whole different thing entirely.
Besides, if obliterating his own tattoo would on its own work he could have done it and slipped away quietly. And so could Giles, for that matter. It probably requires a substitution.
And Buffy asked for it. Well, she wanted to protect Giles without protecting Ethan. Transfer the mark and hey, she gets her wish.
... Ethan-in-my-head is not a nice man, but has his own logic.
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Date: 2008-04-09 06:55 am (UTC)Glad you're back to posting about Buffy.
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:16 pm (UTC)I heartily approve!
Glad you're back to posting about Buffy.
Me too. Feels like a return to ... something. Fannish life.
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:32 pm (UTC)That was probably it. Anything to keep me awake for a while.
Ahhh - shared picnic scenario. Sounds lovely, doesn't it?
Too many cockamamie names of things that almost sound like something else, or else sound like badly-conceived foreign cartoon characters.
Yes. There's sometimes a self-parodying tone to the show that I don't much like.
It was so bad it was good!!
Groan. I hate things that are so bad they're good. Because they aren't.
First of all, what sixteen-year-old can read Etruscan? (Who on this planet, for that matter, can read Etruscan?)
I guess she's still channelling ancient demons. Which is a kind of cool Willowism. I can live with it quite happily because she's so into it.
Re the screw: like I said, Slayer senses.
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Date: 2008-04-09 02:33 pm (UTC)Hee - yup. Sounds right. I like the image.
Ethan-in-my-head is not a nice man, but has his own logic.
Ethan amuses me mightily. I like his style.
Re: D'OH!
Date: 2008-04-09 03:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 07:13 pm (UTC)I don't have much to say about this one - though I think that is less a reflection on the episode and more to do with me being very tired from work (yawn).
Hmm, let's see.
One thing I've always found a bit odd is the tattoos and just how big Buffy's allowance is. As far as I know, having a tattoo removed is an expensive and lengthy process. They don't just vanish after one session.
And I always felt a bit annoyed about Jenny's reaction to Giles at the end, though I can't really blame her for being upset. Watching it again I've realised that I don't like her that much, though I like some of the lines that come out of her and Giles interacting.
Ooh, like when Willow says "can't you just imagine them getting together?" and they look after Giles and Jenny fondly and then get grossed out. Made me smile.
And that's about it. I'm done.
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Date: 2008-04-09 07:45 pm (UTC)I really don't think so. There was no need to trick Rupert and tying him or anything. The mark was like a beacon. He knew the demon would come for both of them anyway. He did need to remove his own, and possibly put it on someone else, assuming the demon is looking for a specific number of participants. The only reason he might have wanted to find Rupert is perhaps they could deal with it together.
Or, like Becca said, hide behind Rupert.
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Date: 2008-04-09 08:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 08:10 pm (UTC)And while I can understand why she'd be unhappy with the events of the ep., she had encountered the scary before with that group. I think part of her reaction this time (disregarding the actual possession for the moment) is that it revealed a different side of Rupert, not the cuddly, fuddy-duddy butt-end to her jokes. And that meant she had to reconsider him as a real person, just as much as Buffy had to.
Willow and Etruscan - yeah. I never liked that type of thing. It's one thing for a trained watcher to be versed in ancient texts, but someone who got into it 5 minutes ago? Oh well. Suspension of disbelief is the way to go.
Ethan: It's one of my virtues. ...Not really.
It is, actually.
Both Rupert and Ethan were getting the dreams and knew not only what was coming, but that the other was getting them too. I think Ethan wanted to see how Rupert was dealing with it, if he was planning to do something about it, but naturally being scared to face him, especially given the beating he got a few weeks before.
Philip also came running for Rupert, before the demon actually got to him.
Rupert is very much an idiot overcome with guilt in this one. Not fear, though. Not so much.
Did you see this one just now or closer to Halloween? And of course the ep in-between is about a teen making stupid choices playing with demons and dying for it.
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Date: 2008-04-09 08:11 pm (UTC)Tell me about it! I'm still falling asleep every half hour whether I want to or not. Cutting back on painkillers, hoping that will help combat the sleepiness.
As far as I know, having a tattoo removed is an expensive and lengthy process. They don't just vanish after one session.
Her mother must have wondered what was wrong with her neck!
I always felt a bit annoyed about Jenny's reaction to Giles at the end, though I can't really blame her for being upset.
Uh-huh. Well, if I liked her, I'd be upset with her for not being more caring and supportive of him. As it is, and since I don't want their relationship to prosper, I was happy to see her back off.
I like some of the lines that come out of her and Giles interacting.
Yes.
Re: D'OH!
Date: 2008-04-09 08:24 pm (UTC)I like the idea that the book might have been a first-edition "African Queen" - that being one of my favourite movies.
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Date: 2008-04-09 08:39 pm (UTC)Good. There are a lot of fans who, when I said I didn't like Jenny, looked at me as if I kicked puppies or something. As if everyone liked Jenny. Which I found a little puzzling, as I don't. I like her scenes and her role in the story: I just don't want to see her particularly bonded to Giles.
they do have some good dialogue from a meta perspective.
Yes indeed, and some good scenes. I like the whole theme in "The Dark Age" where Giles felt guilt and concern about her - another innocent he had endangered because of Eygon the Etruscan.
I think part of her reaction this time ... is that it revealed a different side of Rupert, not the cuddly, fuddy-duddy butt-end to her jokes. And that meant she had to reconsider him as a real person, just as much as Buffy had to.
Veryinteresting comment, because it puts its finger right on what bothers me most about their relationship - that I find her kind of condescending towards him. Over and over it's played as if he's the fuddy-duddy enwrapped in books who doesn't know what to do with/to a woman and she's the cool-hot-pretty-smart one who teases him into the modern age and physicality. But I'd be willing to bet Giles has had a lot more sexual experience than she has, and is totally in tune with the world around him and with his own interests).
Put another way: I get the impression she wants to change him - from a boring old guy into her exciting plaything - and I'd rather see him with someone who not only likes him as he is, but understands what he is and is okay with it. No, not just okay, who really thinks he's terrific. Because I think he's terrific.
Suspension of disbelief is the way to go.
I can handle that.
It is, actually.
I was sort of hoping. Like the old logic puzzle about meeting a liar in the road.
but naturally being scared to face him, especially given the beating he got a few weeks before.
Yes. Giles didn't seem to inclined to confide him in.
Philip also came running for Rupert, before the demon actually got to him.
Do you think this implies that the others saw Giles as the wiser one, a sort of leader who might know what to do? Or were they just trying to warn him?
Rupert is very much an idiot overcome with guilt in this one. Not fear, though. Not so much.
I think he feared harm to those now dear to him - people like Jenny and Buffy. But no, he clearly wasn't driven by fear. He was looking for a way to deal with it.
Did you see this one just now or closer to Halloween?
I've seen it twice now. Once, shortly after I saw "Halloween", and then again yesterday. So much has happened in the past week to make me forget it that it was good to see it again.
Did you get my message that I'd posted about it? I couldn't find the email you'd sent me and then I couldn't find your email address and I was feeling sleeping and unclever anyway - you weren't online but I figure I'd toss the URL your way and see what happened.
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Date: 2008-04-09 08:56 pm (UTC)It is, actually.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who seems to think that :) For all his quasi-evilness Ethan is one of the most honest and self-aware characters in the Buffyverse. I always found that fascinating about him.
I figured he wasn't so much wanting to see how Giles was dealing with it as he was wanting to save his own skin and knew that Giles, with pet slayer, was the best way to do it.
It's also a character point to note with Ethan that he tattooed Buffy, not anyone else. He could easily have picked up some random drunk in a bar, kidnapped them and tattooed them but he didn't. He did it to the one person that had a fighting chance. Then promptly, being Ethan, ran away.
I always got the feeling Ethan was attention seeking from Giles. But then again I might just like to see that in things, it's my summary of half the Doctor/Master relationship as well...
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Date: 2008-04-09 09:04 pm (UTC)I agree entirely. Whenever Ethan turns it always feels like he wants something from Ripper, protection, or more usually attention. Which he tends to do by misbehaving and tends to get.
Ethan-in-my-head is not a nice man, but has his own logic. .
Same here. Ethan to me is a pure egoist. He'll do whatever he thinks is best for himself but he doesn't have inherently malign intentions towards everyone because of it. He clearly has the capability to cause a lot more carnage than he ever does, he does things for a purpose. Never a very nice purpose but it does follow his own logic and maybe even his own morals.
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Date: 2008-04-09 09:10 pm (UTC)Personally I'd like to see him bound to Ethan but that's just a personal kink... :D
Bear in mind that you're in a different place to a lot of these fans, there are some moments coming up that may very well influence your feelings towards the character.
I love hearing Giles called "Ripper" too, and the way Ethan sometimes drops the 't' from Rupert and you get this rolling "Ruperrr" sounds. I think he does that in this one :D
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Date: 2008-04-09 09:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 11:37 pm (UTC)Hm...? Was there an early episode which had Willow possessed, or displaced, or something like that? Remind me?
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Date: 2008-04-09 11:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 11:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 11:52 pm (UTC)After my errands. I'm going, now. I am.
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Date: 2008-04-09 11:55 pm (UTC)Well, yes, me too. That's an interesting relationship in ways the Giles/Jenny relationship isn't interesting, and they act like equals.
there are some moments coming up that may very well influence your feelings towards the character.
Which one? Giles? Ethan? Jenny?
the way Ethan sometimes drops the 't' from Rupert and you get this rolling "Ruperrr" sounds.
Yes, and I love it.
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Date: 2008-04-09 11:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-09 11:57 pm (UTC)I like that interpretation, in both cases.
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Date: 2008-04-10 05:34 am (UTC)*loves*
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Date: 2008-04-10 05:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 05:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 05:55 am (UTC)Not at all. He's never getting the credit he deserves.
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Date: 2008-04-10 05:57 am (UTC)Yes. That's the basis of my shipping. Not a lot of people in that canon respect Giles, or think he has strength, or depth, especially at this point; they don't "know who he is", cough.
And then you said, [Giles and Ethan] act like equals. - YES, that. They argue and they're on different sides of the... world, so to speak, but I don't think they think of each other as less than they are.
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Date: 2008-04-10 12:53 pm (UTC)There are scenes in which I think Buffy gets it, but then she regresses again and forgets.
They argue and they're on different sides of the... world, so to speak, but I don't think they think of each other as less than they are.
And that kind of equality fosters both love and hate, if it doesn't find the right balance. I was playing with ideas of Ethan and Giles as mirror images of each other: I don't know enough about either to make it fit well, but it feels right to me - that after their crisis 20 years ago, Ethan went on a path of self-serving magic, while Giles followed the path of devoting himself to knowledge and to the Slayer. But they are coming from the same psychological places, just going in different directions with it.
The friction is greater because each has rejected the choice the other made for his lifestyle.
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Date: 2008-04-10 12:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-10 12:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 12:58 am (UTC)I'm very impressed with your comments here and on other episodes. And with the comments on your comments. Helps my appreciation a lot.
I think Han Solo has a "We go way back." line, too, but not, IIRC, prefaced by a "We go back".
Xander seems to be like Ivan - that's been mentioned before, I think. Anyway, he and Cordelia provide inexhaustible sources of insensitivity and cluelessness whenever needed.
We see the Jenny-demon reach out a hand and push away an assailant who is a couple feet away. Don't recall seeing Angel do that. Yes, I think Willow was very lucky that the right demon won in the intra-Angel sweeps. They'd have really had a problem if it had gone the other way. Nice to have the writers on your side. Except when they're trying to think up the worst possible thing to do to you.
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Date: 2008-04-13 01:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 01:36 am (UTC)Han Solo - now, I used to know all his dialogue! No longer.
I can see why people would think Xander is like Ivan but I like Ivan so much more.
Nice to have the writers on your side. Except when they're trying to think up the worst possible thing to do to you.
Esepcially when they keep getting you out of it alive and intact!
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Date: 2008-04-13 01:38 am (UTC)