About the ratings...

[fajrdrako]

Once again I am musing over a chronic problem: How to rate a story for sexual content.

I've read the rules and they don't make much sense to me - not enough to be predictive. Usually, to be on the safe side, I tend to call any story NC-17 is I put any graphic sex in it at all. And probably most of them are NC-17, by any standards. Except I'm not even sure of that. Even when I write PWPs, my stories tend to be character-and-theme oriented.

So what do I do with a story that is mostly talk, but some of it's talk about sex, and there's talk about sex acts, and at least one sex act depicted (maybe more on a rewrite), and none of it's particularly like what I see other people writing, in terms of sexual content. It's about feelings and denial of feelings, and it's a Torchwood story, which means it isn't very conventional anyway, and there's references to m/m sex and f/f sex and m/f sex. It's about both a love triangle and a threesome.

So... how do I judge? How do you judge what ratings to put on your stories? What do you expect when you see "R" or "NC-17" or "PC-13"? (I'm not even asking about the British ratings because they confuse me even further!)

Any advice would be appreciated!

Comments

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

I figure it's an R if it's the type of sex you'd see in an R movie, and an NC-17 if it's anything beyond that. I would, however, give an X to anything non-consensual or violent, not that I partake of that. But as a reader, while I don't care about sexual content (I mean, R etc), I would be glad to be notified of "non-consensual" so I can decide if I want to read it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There's no shred of non-consensuality or violence in my story - though I was thinking of mentioning rape (in connection with Captain Jack's time on the Valiant) and decided against it. In any case, if I put that in, it would be just mentioned, not shown or described.

I don't know what to expect with movie ratings, either, so thinking of them doesn't help me. Could you maybe name a few movies that would probably be R, or some that would be NC-17?

Sounds from what you say as if an R rating might be all right.

[auriaephiala.livejournal.com]

Here's the Ontario Film Review Board's system:
http://www.ofrb.gov.on.ca/english/page6.htm
and their classification guidelines:
http://www.ofrb.gov.on.ca/english/classification_guideline_en.pdf
if that might be useful. Sex scenes tend to dump you into the OFRB's top two categories.

The classifications of the British Board of Film Classification are at http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/policy-thecategories.php
and
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/policy-class-15.php (less explicit sex)
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/policy-class-18.php (explicit sex)
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/policy-class-r18.php (strictly porn)

Everything I could find on the MPAA indicates that the difference between R and NC-17 is very poorly defined. Sigh.

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

My rule of thumb is that if I mention a sexual organ (proper name, slang, or euphemism) during the act, it's NC-17. If the sex is more metaphorical, it's R.

But I hate having to rate fic. We don't put ratings on novels.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

I tend to assume NC17 is detailed, and R has things in it but not quite so graphically described, and PG13 has very little or none.

On the other hand, on my own journal I try not to rate with this, or any other, pre-defined system. I just say (or I try) if things have adult content, if there's sex in them. Kiddiesafe. Not safe for work. That's it.

If you try that when posting to a community though, they might hate you.

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to give a constructive comment, because I think the whole ratings thing is crap. You can have horrible traumatic abusive stuff going on, and yet be not-at-all evidently sexual.

I really think the only useful ratings are "adult" and "general". I don't pretend to understand the US system (it seems that a lesbian kiss is automatically NC17, but reasonably graphic het sex only garners an R), and I don't think the system in the UK is much better.

I think the point of this rant is that a lot of these comms and fanfic sites need to be much more specific about what ratings mean to them, rather than being so, hm, culturally imperialistic (for want of a better term). Not all of us are USAians, and even those who are can have a problem with the rating system. I personally prefer verbal descriptions, without any attempt at shorthand. Eg. "graphic sex, consensual, m/m, light bdsm, romance..." It's clear what you're getting then.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the links! I wish they clarified more.... One of the problems with these ratings is that we get descriptions intended for virual media, not prose stories. In a story, what is there, and what is described, can be two very different things. Nudity, for example.

And you have the problem of 'what is described' morphing into 'how it is described' - use of language, different types of words, different moods. The same scene could be written hard-and-nasty or sweet-and-soft. Would it get the same rating? How would I know?

Throwing up my hands in perplexity....!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I also hate having to rate fic - mostly because it confuses me so! I like your rule of thumb, though. And it does mean that most of my stuff would be NC-17, I suppose. Even though it's really pablum. Who'd have guessed?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If you try that when posting to a community though, they might hate you.

Yeah - that's the problem. So I'm trying to get a feel for what other people would expect from a rating. Very head-scratching. I mean - consensus? in fandom? I must be dreaming.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree with you, every word. I agree that the ratings system is crap. And I don't think applying movie ratings for prose stories is meaningful at all.

But much as I would like to just say "there's sex in here" and leave it at that, I keep seeing warnings that LJs will be shut down if the warnings aren't 'adequate'.

And some stories... like the one I'm writing now... just stymie me. There's sex in it, if you count a lot of people thinking or talking about sex, and one orgasm, and references to body parts, but... no fucking, no bdsm, and even the romance - the whole point is a smoke-and-mirrors thing - heck, even the title is "Not About Sex" (but it's lying). I mean, it's pablum. But it also has stuff about sex.

I think I need to add a really explicit sex scene - possibly a fantasy sequence? - to justify a sexual content rating! (Only how can I do that when my viewpoint character hasn't a clue about her desires? Huh. It's a challenge. Why do I like to write emotional paradoxes? Hmm?)

And here I am, musing aloud to no purpose.

Maybe second draft will be different anyway.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

Communities who are strict about it will often have an explanation, or a link to an explanation, in their info page, detailing what they expect.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm - yes, that could be helpful. I'll check out what they say.

Otherwise I will just, as usual, fake it.

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

I use R for non-descriptive talk/doing of sex or violence. Once I get a little descriptive and/or get into kinkier, darker territory, I usually go NC-17 just because that way no one can say they don't know what they were getting into. And I ALWAYS include a section that lists warnings, whatever they may be, regardless of rating.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

As a reader only, I generally expect NC-17 (or equivalent) to be full-on erotica. With bits and parts doing this and that.

[mommimus-prime.livejournal.com]

I tend to think of NC-17 as having graphic descriptions of the act plus detail descriptions of the parts used. Doesn't matter if there's a great story. Oh, non-con wouldn't make an NC-17 unless it included the above. I like verbal warnings rather than just ratings so I can decide without have to sample. That's just me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, I also tend to think verbal descriptions are more useful than ratings. (On the whole, I gravitate to NC-17 and run screaming away from MPREG.) But as a writer? I'm just confused.

"Graphic descriptions of the act and the parts used" is helpful, except that in the current story it has me wondering "how graphic is 'graphic'"? What is the relationship between 'mention' and 'description'? Pfft.

The more I think about it, the more confused I get.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

bits and parts doing this and that

Well... suppose there is masturbation and/or mutual masturbation, with parts described, but no penetration? Suppose there is lots of nakedness and cuddling without specific touching of sexual parts? Suppose there are fairly specific descriptions of orgasm and ejaculation without physical contact?

At what point does talk about sex turn into erotica?

How much sex is sex if no one is actually fucking?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Verbal warnings are good, too, I agree... But at some point they may become spoilers. I don't want to give away my denouement, either!

Yet it seems only fair to warn that there's going to be a threesome in the story at some point.

Pondering still.

This is the fluffy-bunny vanilla side of kinky and yet I can't help thinking myself that the situation is... kinky enough.

Maybe I'm just over-thinking the problem.

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

Well, I also list what pairings are in my fics as part of the header because I know well enough that there are some pairings I just flat don't enjoy and I assume others feel the same - so a threesome would go under the pairings AND in the warnings for me :)

[mommimus-prime.livejournal.com]

It's sort of a *I know what I like and I know when I see it" type of thing. It's all very personal. I'll read just about anything except non-con and incest and yeah, mpreg, but someone else would be horribly offended by even the most minor thing. I even like giant robot sex of the non-sticky variety so it's hard to judge just by ratings. And there are all layers of explicitness. Generally, I don't think of robot sex (plug and play and such) as graphic and wonder why it has to have NC-17 ratings.

I honestly don't think you can come up with a satisfactory rating to please everybody and you should just rate your stuff the way you think it should be rated. It's impossible to warn everybody of every little thing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's true - you can't please anyone however you do it and most readers don't care much about the rating anyway - they'll either want to read about sex or not, and that's the main point of the ratings.

My main kink is for 'good writing' so I'll read practically any genre or type of story regardless of content if I have faith in the author to write well. Which is a subjective judgment at best. I've read and loved all sorts of outrageous stuff I thought I wouldn't, just because of the quality of the writing and the thought behind it.

And no one anywhere puts: "WARNING! BAD WRITING!" on their stories, but there are people who put 'warning - unbeta'd crackfic' on their stories so I know to skip those. And if the writing/spelling/grammar is bad enough, it's clear from the first sentence.

I think I might just settle on an R for my story.

[mommimus-prime.livejournal.com]

Yes, nothing worse than badly written porn. Aargh! The cliches, they burn. LOL

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think I have to do that - making it a separate issue/item separate from the actual ratings.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

nothing worse than badly written porn

Ain't it the truth! (Shudder)

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

What. You don't love a solid hour of hard thrusting followed by a shouting-match of duelling orgasms with gallons of scalding come?

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I've seen the designation of "hard R" to describe scenarios like that, if that helps.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hrrm. Yeah, that might help.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Not sure about the 'scalding' part; sounds painful. But if I'm picturing Jack and Ianto doing the thrusting and shouting.... Hmm. How bad could it be?

(I pause to consider some of the stories I've read... Yeah. Pretty bad.)

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

This is all from a story I read that featured "scalding come". Gallons of it. Just like in real life! And a full hour of hard thrusting. Ow.

I like to picture Jack and Ianto doing just about anything. I live in hope that someday we'll get to see something.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This is all from a story I read

I was afraid of that. The things people will say... Scalding. Huh. Got his body temperature set a little high, there.

Yes, I hope we get more than we've had so far. Really.

[rose-etta.livejournal.com]

I would use R when the action is there, but cloaked by language.

Use NC-17 when explicite words are used: cock etc

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, I did say 'cock'. I usually do - I don't like euphemisms. So: NC-17, then!