Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Nightmares (1x10)

[fajrdrako]

I loved this episode. Loved it very much.

1. First, we have Buffy's nightmare. My first thought was "Oh, no, not the Master again." But then it clearly was... different. Buffy wasn't herself. Buffy was scared. "I bet it's a dream," I thought. And so it was. It was fun to see Buffy in braids. Good candles.

2. So Buffy has a father. I am surprised. Loved Willow's comment on the divorce: "harsh".

3. Love Willow's line: "My parents don't even bicker. Sometimes they glare."

4. Xander makes fun of Cordelia: "Wendell, what is wrong with you? Don't you know that she is the
center of the universe, and the rest of us merely revolve around her?" I sometimes have trouble figuring out Xander's actual attitude to Cordelia. Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?

5. Wendell has a spider problem. I thought he's be the redshirt of the episode, but of course he wasn't - I must learn to stop thinking about Buffy in terms of the cliches we see in all other shows. It's misleading. Confusing because we sometimes do get regular cliches, but we also get twists in the cliches, and innovation.

6. So it's the Master who makes a speech about fear. I like 'fear' as a theme; I always think fear is the root of most evil.

7. I like Xander's "famous last words': "I'm not worried. If there's something bad out there we'll find, you'll slay, we'll party!" Bravado probably, but it looks good on him.

8. Another passage:

Wendell: They're not insects. They're arachnids.
Xander: They're from the Middle East?

Is that a joke? I don't get it. Is it just that Xander thinks 'arachnid' is a nationality?

9. Buffy: "There's a history test? Nobody told me there was a history test! I haven't... I... Okay, I will catch up with you guys later." I can relate - that's one of my recurring nightmares - writing an exam for a course I haven't studied for. In some dreams, it's a course I've never even taken, but I have to pass the exam anyway. (Shudder.)

10. I like the way the nightmares escalate, getting more threatening and more widespread as the episode continues.

11. I liked the nightmare kid. It's obvious for us that he's the epicentre of the nightmares, but I can see it wouldn't be obvious to the characters - especially as their thinking becomes more and more irraitonal.

12. Love the nightmare of the tough guy whose mother comes and makes a fuss over him in front of his friends.

13. So Xander dreams he's standing in front of the other students in his underwear. When I had that dream, I usually wasn't wearing underwear, and I was usually trying to find something to hide behind.

14. Giles' nightmare: that he can't read. Oooh. Scary.

15. Love the way each person's nightmare is tailored to their character. Does Xander's fear of clowns have anything to do with his tendency to make jokes most of the time? Loved Cordelia's nightmare of bad hair and unfashionable clothes! And Willow's fear of being on stage, being looked at by a crowd of people, being asked to sing.

16. I wonder what Giles' five languages are.

17. I like Buffy's phrase: "asteroid body".

18. Buffy's nightmare (besides being helpless with vampires): that her father doesn't love or like her, that he is disappointed in her and embarrassed by her, and that she was responsbible for her parent's divorce. Makes sense. Of course it plays on all her fears - of being different, of being immature, of being outcast.

19. Our characters split up - shouldn't they know that in any TV show or horror show, that's a really bad idea?

20. Xander following the bait of chocolate bars... That seemed oddly nonsensical. Like a dream, of course. But also rather too comic. Likewise a fear of being buried seemed sort of anticlimactic for Buffy - but her fear of being a vampire? Perfect. Loved her line: "Well, we better hurry... 'cause I'm getting hungry."

21. Xander stands up to the clown. Wonderful.

22. Giles' nightmare: failing to protect Buffy. I loved that, too.

23. So they go to the hospital, fight the Ugly Man, persuade Billy out of his coma, and restore reality. I wasn't sure what gave Billy his powers... Not that it matters. Though Billy was fine as the basis of the plot, I thought his story was weak compared to that of the others - particularly Buffy. All the emotional power was with her and her situation. Billy's problem never did acquire much oomph or sense of threat. The threat, in fact, was never the Ugly Man's power over Billy, but Billy's power over everyone else in Sunnydale.

21. I'd be curious to know what Joyce Summer's nightmare was or would be.

22. I liked the moral of the story - face your fears. That's an important thing to learn, and most of us don't learn it, ever.

23. Happy ending, when Buffy's father came to get her and things were all right. So... was it not him, before? Was he just Buffy's delusion? Or was he somehow controlled by Billy's dreaming, and overcame and forgot it afterwards? ...Doesn't matter: irrelevant plot details.

24. Final conversation:

Willow: When Buffy was a vampire, you weren't still, like, attracted to her, were you?
Xander: Willow, how can you... I mean, that's really bent! She was... grotesque!
Willow: Still dug her, huh?
Xander: I'm sick, I need help.

Shouldn't somebody be pointing out that Buffy is Buffy, whatever she looks like?

Comments

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Is that a joke? I don't get it. Is it just that Xander thinks 'arachnid' is a nationality?

LOL! Maybe If I write it out for you as Iraqnids...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh. Right. That works! And it is funny, after all.

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

I have to say, at the time, I thought vamp!Buffy looked better than real!Buffy.

But then my tastes run darker and I am not big on the girl in the first place.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

at the time, I thought vamp!Buffy looked better than real!Buffy

Hee.

then my tastes run darker and I am not big on the girl in the first place

In terms of looks (and voice), no, Buffy doesn't do a lot for me. I am suprised, actually, that I find her as palatable as I do, becuase (before I watched the show) her looks and style didn't make me want to watch - rather the contrary.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

Plus, now you're only 5 til School Hard.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This is a good thing?

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

See icon for why School Hard is a good thing. 'Tis the first appearance.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ack! SPIKE!!!

[babydraco.livejournal.com]

Xander thought he said "Iraqis". Or he was making a bad joke pretending that he'd misheard it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Got it now. I'm often really, really slow in getting puns.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

I sometimes have trouble figuring out Xander's actual attitude to Cordelia. Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?

Yes.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ah. Right. Understood.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

"Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?"

All of the above?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So it seems! All of it understandable.

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

I wasn't sure what gave Billy his powers

The Hellmouth. It's a handy explanation for everything.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That works. As well as it needs to, anyway.

As a long-time X-Men fan I was enjoying thinking of him as a mutant.

[gillo]

Getting closer to

School Hard

. (You do realise that if you hate the episode we'll have to kill you?)

I sometimes have trouble figuring out Xander's actual attitude to Cordelia. Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?

Definitely.

I must learn to stop thinking about Buffy in terms of the cliches we see in all other shows. It's misleading. Confusing because we sometimes do get regular cliches, but we also get twists in the cliches, and innovation.

This is Joss. He aims to misbehave - expect the unexpected...

So Xander dreams he's standing in front of the other students in his underwear. When I had that dream, I usually wasn't wearing underwear, and I was usually trying to find something to hide behind.

Four or five seasons later we might have seen that too - not this early, though. The WB was still thinking young teen audience.

Giles' nightmare: that he can't read. Oooh. Scary.

15. Love the way each person's nightmare is tailored to their character. Does Xander's fear of clowns have anything to do with his tendency to make jokes most of the time? Loved Cordelia's nightmare of bad hair and unfashionable clothes! And Willow's fear of being on stage, being looked at by a crowd of people, being asked to sing.

Some of these nightmares will become recurring leitmotifs. (Especially Willow and singing.)

I wonder what Giles' five languages are.

I think he's being modest and understating the total. Sumerian is one of them.

I'd be curious to know what Joyce Summer's nightmare was or would be.

Loss of her daughter?

Happy ending, when Buffy's father came to get her and things were all right. So... was it not him, before? Was he just Buffy's delusion? Or was he somehow controlled by Billy's dreaming, and overcame and forgot it afterwards? ...Doesn't matter: irrelevant plot details.

I think we can assume all of the nightmare elements reset themselves for most of the characters.

I get the feeling you're becoming somewhat invested in these characters? I hope you have S2 ready to go...

(That's when it really starts to become good. No, excellent.You ain't seen nuffink yet)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<i.getting>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<i.Getting closer to School Hard. (You do realise that if you hate the episode we'll have to kill you?)</i>

I knew watching <i>Buffy</i> would be dangerous.

<i>This is Joss. He aims to misbehave - expect the unexpected...</i>

Yes. But not, I hope, at the expense of characterization.

<i> The WB was still thinking young teen audience.</i>

Young people also have naked-in-public nightmares. The WB were idiots.

<i>Loss of her daughter?</i>

Almost certainly, I'd say.

<i>you're becoming somewhat invested in these characters?</i>

Somewhat. Well, some of them. Especially Giles.

<i>I hope you have S2 ready to go...</i>

yes.

<i>You ain't seen nuffink yet</i>

Oooh - anticpation.

[gillo]

I knew watching Buffy would be dangerous.

There are enough rewards to compensate.

Yes. But not, I hope, at the expense of characterization.

Few characters are OOC much, if at all.

Young people also have naked-in-public nightmares. The WB were idiots.

Self-censorship is often the worst type of censorship. And US TV seems much more squeamish about showing naked body bits than in the UK. Remember that Jackson girl farce?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There are enough rewards to compensate.

So it seems.

Remember that Jackson girl farce?

I'd forgotten till you reminded me. Seems so weird, to me!

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked this ep.
I must learn to stop thinking about Buffy in terms of the cliches we see in all other shows. It's misleading.

That line made me laugh. Adam said: Oh my, they're being original. Terrible thing. Must put a stop to it. [That last bit? A quote].


Xander: They're from the Middle East?

My immediate association: [only a quote, no context for you!]

WILLOW: I mean, why else would she be acting like such a b-i-t-c-h?
GILES: Willow, I think we're all a little too old to be spelling things out.
XANDER: A bitca?

Of course, people now use bitca freely.


When I had that dream, I usually wasn't wearing underwear

Your dream would probably not have stayed under the PG-13 rating of the American TV system.


I like Buffy's phrase: "asteroid body".

I'm curious. Why do you like this bit of pun but not the arachnid one? It's the same type of humour.


Love the way each person's nightmare is tailored to their character.

Yes. I love what the nightmares reaveal of the characters, expanding on and bringing a deeper glimpse into what we know. Xander's fear of ridicule or the horror at the end of the chocolate lure; Cordy terrified of not being the confident glamorous princess; Willow's fear of public attention, which reverberates her running off stage at the ending of the Puppet Show (also re her comments on Xander's nudity nightmare); Buffy's parental issues and of course her slaying issues with burial and vamping.

Most interesting to me are Rupert's nightmares, all relating in varying degrees to failing his destined sacred duty; he doesn't fear for himself, doesn't dream of being attacked by monsters and demons, it's always self-driven failure with dire consequneces for his charges, starting with his getting lost among the sources of knowledge, literally and figuratively and of course beside Buffy's grave.

This being a well-written show, I like how the nightmares tie back and foreshadow other eps.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Most interesting to me are Rupert's nightmares, all relating in varying degrees to failing his destined sacred duty; he doesn't fear for himself, doesn't dream of being attacked by monsters and demons, it's always self-driven failure with dire consequneces for his charges,

Oh, you're very smart! I didn't pick up on that at all, and it is very interesting.

Thinking along that line though, I'm wondering if some of it could also apply to Buffy's dreams - I think the ones with the Master are mainly about fearing death, but could also be about failing to stop him, and the fact that she finds herself unable to fight off the Ugly Man initially I think is probably a fear of failing as a Slayer thing.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Please ignore the deleted dud. I was sleepy and, more importantly, in the wrong account.

Oh, you're very smart! I didn't pick up on that at all, and it is very interesting.
Thank you. :) I tend to think more about Rupert, and I had more background even the first time I saw this ep (having watched not in sequential order).

a fear of failing as a Slayer thing.
As an added layer, yes, and the Master says something to that effect explicitly, I think. But she's very much the primary victim of her dreams. I also think she was fearing being not dead more, hence the buried alive and undead aspects.

Pity we didn't get more of other nightmares. There's so much potential for unpleasant ficcing there. After all, one assumes that Rupert would have some nightmares that are related to other aspects of his life, just like Buffy did. I would have liked to see Joyce having dreams that are not related to motherhood.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

she's very much the primary victim of her dreams

True - that's why I think a larger part of it for her is about death.

I also think she was fearing being not dead more

Hmm, interesting. Especially considering all the stuff later we can't talk about!

Pity we didn't get more of other nightmares

Well, that's what fanfic is for, isn't it? :-) And certainly for Rupert there is background we don't know at this point that would have made interesting nightmares.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

These are all intriguing points.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it could also apply to Buffy's dreams - I think the ones with the Master are mainly about fearing death, but could also be about failing to stop him

I'd say the focus of her dream was of being overpowered - of being not strong enough to do what she has to do. Which makes it a little bit of both, but as in the scene with her father, she fears not being good enough for her job.

Like Giles.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

being overpowered - of being not strong enough to do what she has to do

Yes. Though I think there is personal fear of the Master as well.

as in the scene with her father, she fears not being good enough for her job.

Like Giles.

I love that - the connections between them and the similarities they have in their positions in some ways.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

there is personal fear of the Master as well.

Really? He doesn't seem very scary to me. He just has a lot of acolytes.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but what Buffy knows about him is that all the other vampires are scared of him (scary things being scared is a bad sign), he's trying to break free and when he does it will open the Hellmouth and be all apocalyptic, and she's eventually probably going to have to take him on.

Also, if we take the events of the film as vaguely canon - though actually according to Joss what we can take as canon from the film is now a comic called Origin - she has come up against an old and powerful vampire with minions before and because of that lost her first Watcher. So knowing there is another vamp leader out there wanting to rise and kill everyone would likely wig her out even more.

(Just had a thought as well - isn't the Master in the first nightmare she has in episode 1? And in these dreams she still hasn't ever seen him in reality, so she knows what he looks like already without ever having met him. Not really important, it just occurred to me.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can understand Buffy being scared of the Master, if only by reputation. But since I don't find him scary myself, it's difficult to take that seriously.

I must look for Origin.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Good points. We do tend to forget she lost her first watcher on the job, in what must be less than a year earlier in the timeline.

And I think that her nightmares of him here are indeed a tie back to previous nightmares. Though I don't remember what we're supposed to know about the prophecy at this point.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Poor Merrick. Donald Sutherland cocked him up in the film, and he's hardly remembered at all by the series viewers. Apparently he gets better treatment in the comic.

I don't remember what we're supposed to know about the prophecy at this point

At this point, it's "prophecy, what prophecy?"

Unless you count the Master reading about the Annoying One:

"And the Slayer will not know him and will not stop him and he will lead her into Hell"

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've come across a prophecy yet - not an interesting one. There was a prophecy about the Anointed One who turns out to be a really boring kid who hangs out with the Master.

I wouldn't mind seeing Donald Sutherland in with this crowd.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

a. Only one more before the season finale.

b. Something tells me you'll like what happens to the kid later...

c. Sutherland didn't do a good job (like the rest of the movie) and Joss has a thing against him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Only one more before the season finale.

Then it's on to season 2.

Something tells me you'll like what happens to the kid later...

I hope it will be dire. And final.

Sutherland didn't do a good job (like the rest of the movie) and Joss has a thing against him.

Sounds like a doomed project. Miscasting? An incompetent director or producer?

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

S2 has a lot of juicy ones that we're all waiting for.

I hope it will be dire. And final.

LOL

Sounds like a doomed project. Miscasting? An incompetent director or producer?
All of the above, I suspect. Joss was less experienced and with less control, I suspect, and the production made it into just another horror movie with vamps.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Just another bad movie - as if we didn't already have enough of them. Especially in the horror genre.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

The movie was botched up in a lot of ways.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's hard to even remember the movie exists: everyone says it's bad, and it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the continuity of the TV show. So I just ignore its existence.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Adam said: Oh my, they're being original. Terrible thing. Must put a stop to it. [That last bit? A quote].

Can't allow that on our televisions...!

Your dream would probably not have stayed under the PG-13 rating of the American TV system.

I should think not. Silliness.

Why do you like this bit of pun but not the arachnid one? It's the same type of humour.

Mostly because I didn't understand the arachnid one till it was explained to me. "Asteroid" was obvious.

Most interesting to me are Rupert's nightmares, all relating in varying degrees to failing his destined sacred duty

And not just failing, but being inadequate to the task.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

And not just failing, but being inadequate to the task.

Granted. I think the fear of inadequacy is a prerequisite or at least a large part of the fear of failure in this case. And...

agh! *waves hands!* I can't continue this discussion with you yet.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

agh! *waves hands!* I can't continue this discussion with you yet.

Later, then?

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Slowly but surely, bit by bit. I just can't mention all the arguments and depth of the issues there. At least not until mid S2.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Okay. Carrying right on here.

[gillo]

Don't you sometimes just yearn to chain her down in front of a TV for a weekend and force-feed her two or three seasons in one go?

Or is that just my weird kink?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Or is that just my weird kink?

Do all Buffy fans come with weird kinks already part of their nature, or does it come from prolonged viewing?

(Pausing nervously to think of the implications and then deciding that it doesn't matter, I like it either way.)

Bring on Spike. Any time now. I'm ready!!

[gillo]

Oh, I think it's a bit like Rosencrantz and Guildenstarn Are Dead - blood, lust and kinks in any combination, but the kink is not optional.

I just want you to get on to the episodes I truly love. Soon.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Might watch one this afternoon... just because I can.

[gillo]

Prophecy Girl

? Go on - you'll love it.

She has a very nice dress.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Really???

[gillo]

Oh yes. Everyone likes her dress.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Buffy probably appeals to people with weird kinks and answers a variety of preferences. It's a very outsidery show even at its most popular. But there's probably more than that.
I think people who are... long-haul fandom-oriented, for the lack of a better term, get a lot of exposure to new weird kinks, even just by long contact with other weird fans. After all, we're a passionate bunch, and this is no longer the hottest new drama people look forward to every week.

I don't think you need to worry about the implications. You're obviously a long-haul fan of other stuff. ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Actually I'm a sad case of fandom-addiction. And enjoying every minute.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Aren't we all?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

And that's as it should be.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Actually, no. I would be happy if she watched a tad faster, but not whole seasons at a go.
I think the slow immersion makes things sink in better. I want her to enjoy the characterisation and language. Too long marathon sessions only bring out the general arc plots, which I find negligable as a rule.
I would like it if she didn't watch in sequence, but that's a personal preference.

[gillo]

I can understand the watching in sequence, but I really want her to get to my favourite episodes, many of which are in later seasons -

Hush

,

Band Candy, Pangs, Something Blue, Lovers' Walk, OMWF...

Selfish of me really. And yes, I totally get what you mean about slow immersion - I had seven years to get to know and love that world.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I find that all my friends are impatient for me to Get On With It.

And since they are (on the whole) teasing me with what is to come, I feel no shame in teasing them with my steady but stately pace.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

All of the above and then some. Halloween, Dark Age and A New Man, of course, in addition to Band Candy. The Body. The Wish, Dopplegangland, Grave... I can list so many.
With one to two eps a week, it would take her about seven years (assuming she watches AtS too).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm planning to watch two episodes per week, and to include Angel, but I'm flexible. We shall see.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I was exaggerating a bit. But there are about 250 eps in both together.

Actually, there are some eps that should be watched together, I think.

[gillo]

I don't think

anyone

would have the strength to watch one of certain pairs and not rush on to the other.

Becoming, Bargaining, This Year's Girl

leap to mind. Then a couple of crossover pairings too.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

...You will advise me as the time draws near?

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Naturally.

[gillo]

Seven years is way too long. Either she'll become totally hooked and increase the pace or drop it. I know which I'm betting on. (There are some pairs of episodes you'd have to be superhuman not to watch straight after each other. I'm thinking of a couple of pairs in S2 to start with - you know which I mean.)

The Gift, Phases, Smashed, Hell's Bells, Entropy, Normal Again, Spiral, Restless

, oh, virtually all of them. Even the slightly dodgy ones are worth watching, after all.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What order would you suggest? There is a certain temptation to watch "the good stuff" first, but then I'd have to go back to watch all the "not so good stuff" all together afterwards, and that might be a pain.

I like being a completist and I like being chronological - not being in a position to watch non-chronologically.

Or, put another way, I've seen enough snippets of Buffy over the years that I know some of the bits I'm looking forward to. (Name of Spike, mostly.) I only remember a few high points. It's like with Due South - I've seen a lot of episodes over time, not in any particular order, and the only one I actually remember is "Victoria's Secret:. Even that, I don't remember well, but it made an impression.

So. Sequential it is. And as long as Giles is around, I'm happy.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to suggest sequences, because you're already doing the chronological thing.
But I don't mean to watch the good eps first and then the bad. Of course not. (Besides, they get much more complex as time goes by and its less cut and dry, more "not as good as" rather than bad, and much more down to personal taste.) It's a more subtle mix of what you might love more, or what I love a lot and would want you to like too, or for a beginner, what might hook you (but you're already watching the lot, so I don't need that).
When we pimped Buffy to other people we had long conversations to figure out their preferences in other things, or gave them tasty morsels in the shape of quotes or snippets, and only then made recommendations. Of course, some stuff depends on the story arcs and some doesn't.

I'd say go watch School Hard out of order because you love Spike so much, but then there'd be things that would only fall into place when you filled in the sequential blanks, and in this case, those are good points. So I might suggest other good Spike eps.
You already love Giles, so I don't need at this point to pimp eps that would increase the love, only sit back and wait.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes - people have in the past showed me "good bits" to whet my appetite, and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. Funny thing is: they didn't play the Giles card much, and that would have been irresistible. But Spike was just as effective at getting my attention. Other characters? Not so much. I hated Angel and was indifferent to Buffy. My attitude there has already changed.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I suspect you hung out with people whose tastes differ to mine. I'd have pimped Giles and possibly some other things to a newbie with your tastes. Not Buffy herself.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, indeed, the person who first tried to sell me on Buffy was a het male with a history of being in love with Lucy Lawless as Xena. I took his enthusiasm for Sarah Michelle Geller with a grain of salt.

I don't think he ever even mentioned Giles - not to focus on, anyway!

But that was long ago and far away.

Your comments were much more enticing.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

To each their own. That's why if I'm reccing, I try to figure out the other person's tastes. I always go for the older intelligent Brit, so Rupert was obvious for me. And I think that's something we share. A lot of people tend to focus on the youth or whatever.

[gillo]

She's so close to School Hard anyway, she might as well watch the three intervening episodes. But there are developments in mid-S2 I am dying to see her response to!

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Of course. I didn't mean now. I meant if she was starting. I could have suggested she skip Anne, but that has nice Rupert.

[gillo]

Well, yes. And it's very relevant to a couple of

Angel

episodes too.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Not in any way that makes a huge difference. I hadn't even realized it until a few weeks ago. Didn't stop me from liking.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Is "Anne" coming up soon?

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Not really. It's the first of S3. But I don't like it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I"ve a way to go, then.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hrmmm.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

So Buffy has a father

Yup, and I liked how insecure she was at the start about him coming to see her. And this bit:

Willow: He still comes down on weekends
Buffy: Sometimes

makes me want to hug her.

I sometimes have trouble figuring out Xander's actual attitude to Cordelia. Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?

He has to pick just one?

Wendell has a spider problem. I thought he's be the redshirt of the episode, but of course he wasn't

What I liked about Wendell is he is someone else in the school that the trio interact as friends with - they mock Cordelia together and everything. It makes them seem a little less isolated. Also, ugh tarantulas. I'd've screamed the place down too, I am totally with Willow on the wigging out. Though I love Xander crawling his hand up her back and going "It's funny if you're me" when she glares at him.

Buffy: "There's a history test? Nobody told me there was a history test! I haven't... I...

I really like the bit in that nightmare where the clock suddenly jumps forward 50 minutes. Very dreamlike.

Love the way each person's nightmare is tailored to their character. Does Xander's fear of clowns have anything to do with his tendency to make jokes most of the time?

I thought everyone was scared of clowns! Plus that fits with Xander's Everyman thing - and he does have childhood trauma too.

I wonder what Giles' five languages are.

From internal evidence of the series, I think he's underestimating here! Or possibly he only counts the ones he can read absolutely fluently.

Buffy's nightmare (besides being helpless with vampires): that her father doesn't love or like her, that he is disappointed in her and embarrassed by her

Urg, I find that bit so hard to watch. He says such horrible things to her.

Our characters split up - shouldn't they know that in any TV show or horror show, that's a really bad idea?

Well, Willow does say it's a bad idea - I guess it's part of the acting irrationally thing. I like that the impetus is to find Buffy and warn her, especially when Giles says "given the sort of thing she tends to dream about" because obviously being the Slayer gives Buffy many more opportunities for really bad subconscious shenanigans, never mind the actual prophetic ones.

I wasn't sure what gave Billy his powers...

Standard explanation: the Hellmouth. He's trapped in a nightmare, he leaves his body and brings the nightmares too.

Giles' nightmare: failing to protect Buffy. I loved that, too

It's a fantastic Giles moment.

Likewise a fear of being buried seemed sort of anticlimactic for Buffy - but her fear of being a vampire? Perfect. Loved her line: "Well, we better hurry... 'cause I'm getting hungry."

Definitely perfect. I seem to remember I read somewhere that the buried alive bit was because that is actually one of Sarah Michelle Gellar's fears - Joss likes to torture his cast as well as the audience.

Happy ending, when Buffy's father came to get her and things were all right. So... was it not him, before? Was he just Buffy's delusion?

I would say so - I think the real him wasn't physically in Sunnydale at the time when Buffy had that nightmare because he was due to pick her up after school had finished.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Willow: He still comes down on weekends
Buffy: Sometimes

makes me want to hug her.

It made me wonder how often she does see him.

Tarantulas - or spiders in general - don't frighten me, but I don't like them. I find them ugly and uninteresting. Shelob and Ungoliant make great villains.

I seem to remember I read somewhere that the buried alive bit was because that is actually one of Sarah Michelle Gellar's fears

Well - no wonder she was convincing!

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Argh, Shelob! *runs away screaming*

Seriously, that scene in RotK... *shudders* makes me want a cushion to hide behind every time.

There is a size limit for me beyond which spiders become frightening. Small ones don't ususally bother me (unless they are on the wall above my bed - in that case they must be removed).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Argh, Shelob!

Yes. Shudder.

that scene in RotK... *shudders* makes me want a cushion to hide behind every time.

And so it should. Frodo felt the same way.

Small ones don't ususally bother me (unless they are on the wall above my bed - in that case they must be removed).

I have lived happily with small spiders in my bedroom, either just totally ignoring them or thinking of them as benign symbols of luck. But nothing will make me find them interesting or attractive.

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

Giles' nightmare: that he can't read. Oooh. Scary.

I liked Giles' nightmare about being unable to read. It's very revealing of his character, more so than the more typical fear of just having failed.

I'm not sure but I think this is the first episode that actually has a lot of 'relate back' moments, not quite perhaps foreshadowing yet but as far as I recall there's some definite themes here that are revisited.

So Xander dreams he's standing in front of the other students in his underwear. When I had that dream, I usually wasn't wearing underwear, and I was usually trying to find something to hide behind.

Hehehe yeah, I think they'd've had more trouble getting that version aired somehow. Though if you listen to Joss Whedon in the commentary for one episode Giles is doing exactly that: "Tony in this scene, needless to say, pantsless, hiding behind the desk."; "Tony in this scene, very angry about having to wear pants..."

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I liked Giles' nightmare about being unable to read. It's very revealing of his character, more so than the more typical fear of just having failed.

Even more poignant - it wasn't just being unable to read, it was being unable to understand what he was trying to read. Chilling!

Though if you listen to Joss Whedon in the commentary for one episode Giles is doing exactly that: "Tony in this scene, needless to say, pantsless, hiding behind the desk."

Hee.

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

I think for Giles reading isn't just important for pleasure and for information but because in a way it defines his role within the group. He is the one with knowledge and wisdom, if he can't read he looses all of his use to Buffy and the others. Or that's the way he'll see it anyway.

It was curious to see that as different as Buffy and Giles are, both their fears had to do with failing in their duty which results in them becoming something that they fear.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Eseentially (at least as I've seen it so far) Giles and Buffy are two sides of the same coin, a sort of yin/yang thing - the Slayer and the Watcher, or the Slayer and her Support Staff. He's her back-up, her only effective backup - Willow and Xander give emotional support and help, but aren't able or equipped to do the rest.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Giles and Buffy are tied into this with destiny and duty and training. Willow and Xander are by-standers who choose to be involved. I found it curious though that they - who are less equipped to deal with the monsters and have had a much shorter period in which to accept their existence - don't have demons and vampires figuring in their nightmares.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

I found it curious though that they - who are less equipped to deal with the monsters and have had a much shorter period in which to accept their existence - don't have demons and vampires figuring in their nightmares.

Well, the shorter period is probably why. Things can take a while to get into your subconscious like that, particularly the kind of deeply held personal fear that was manifesting in the nightmares. At this point, I think a dream of Xander's or Willow's that had demons and vampires would only tell us that they're scared of demons and vampires, and not tell us anything interesting about who they are. They aren't yet immersed enough in that world for it to tie in with their sense of self in the way that it does for Buffy or Giles.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I liked Giles' nightmare about being unable to read. It's very revealing of his character, more so than the more typical fear of just having failed.

Naturally. I was thinking of the failure at his duty as a common additional aspect to all his nightmares, but of course the particulars are revealing of his character, of his perception of self even.


one episode Giles is doing exactly that: "Tony in this scene, needless to say, pantsless, hiding behind the desk."; "Tony in this scene, very angry about having to wear pants..."

In order of associations: a. Now were does that come from? b. does he mean 'pants' in the US or the UK sense? c. flashes of ASH on Two Guys, a Girl and a Pizza Place, behind a vase. Now where did I see a picture of that recently?

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

I think he meant it in the US sense but to my British ears...

It was on one of the commentaries for one of the episodes, I think it was a Season Two episode but I'm not 100% on that, it was years ago I watched it.

Picture of who hiding behind a what now?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think he meant it in the US sense but to my British ears...

Joss is American, isn't he? So I'd imagine he uses words in the American sense.

That being said, to my Canadian ears, "no pants" would mean "naked from the waist down".

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

I've heard that before as well - it's because they made poor ASH wear tweed suits in LA and he boiled. So if he could hide behind something, he didn't wear the (US) pants, otherwise known as trousers.

Fabulous image though, isn't it?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I bet he had hot lights, too, the poor man. Shed what he can! Dressing in things suitable for the British climate while in California would be ... painful.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

ASH did one or two eps on Two Guys, a Girl and a Pizza Place.
The right hand side images in this collage (http://www.vipgalleries.net/anthony-stewart-head/anthony-stewart-head_01.jpg) are from there.

He did a lot of other things where he took his kit off.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Cute.

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

Oh and Dude, I have to ask you, keeping away all specifics, have you read season eight of Buffy in graphic novel yet?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

No, I haven't read any of the graphic novels yet except Fray. I thought I should stay away from them so as not to be spoiled for the story as aired.

However, I bought the comic with Spike on the cover because I couldn't resist.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Seen them, know some stuff, refuse to read or accept some of the stuff I know. Considering some of the stuff I've seen, I don't think they're well-done, which is a disappointment, both visually and in writing.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

This is one of my favorites from the early run -- I was hoping you'd get to it soon.

4. I sometimes have trouble figuring out Xander's actual attitude to Cordelia. Lust? Contempt? Admiration? Irritation?

All of these. Yes. You will see.

5. Yes, good point: Buffy sometimes does fall into using the cliches we know from other shows, but very often does not, which is wonderful in all ways.

7. "We'll find, you'll slay, we'll party" -- oh, yeah. Things are starting to get into the groove that the show was to follow for the next six and a half years. Yay.

9. Having dreams about having to take a test you haven't heard of before -- gad, me too. And I used to have it come true, in a way: as an undergraduate, I'd have periodic panics because our final exams were often in another room than the class had been, and I'd always seem to miss the memo about where the test was to be! Ugh, it was horrible.

13. Well, you see, Xander was actually standing there naked, but it was aired on common everyday tv, remember! Which I didn't pick up on until I'd seen it a couple of times. Think of how Xander reacts at the moment he and Buffy step into the classroom: that fits "O God, I'm totally naked!!!" perfectly, don't you think?

14 & 15. Interesting... this episode presages another one from much later on, one that is to my mind delightfully surreal while remaining totally internally consistent. Neat.

18. Also this, with Buffy's fears being what they are. That too gets addressed in that future episode.

23. Buffy's dad comes by and picks her up from school? Forgot that we ever saw him even once. Hm!

And your final comment: Shouldn't somebody be pointing out that Buffy is Buffy, whatever she looks like? Um, yes: many, many fanfic writers [hee].

Glad you enjoyed one of my favorite early episodes!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This is one of my favorites from the early run

It's good, isn't it? The plot had its weaknesses, but it had real substance as well.

Having dreams about having to take a test you haven't heard of before -- gad, me too

I bet this is typical of anyone who ever took their studies seriously. And yes, I had it happen in real life a number of times in high school, which was never as scary as the dream version always is.

Buffy's dad comes by and picks her up from school? Forgot that we ever saw him even once. Hm!

Does this mean we won't see him again? - no, don't answer that, rhetorical question.