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fajrdrakoI love fandom. The ship wars are going strong on
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szm has set up her own Anti-Ship Wars Challenge, which I think is brilliant. Bring it on!So when Jack meets up with Captain John after he hasn't seen him in years and they lock lips right off - fandom just sits back and enjoys it. But let Jack touch Gwen's hand - and then ask Ianto on a date - well, that's a serious matter.
And I'm wondering the same thing I think he would be: can't we just enjoy both relationships as they happen?
My take on Jack's relationships: to Jack, love has no predetermined pattern. Love is an ocean in which he swims, not a private swimming pool. It can take him anywhere.
It's no secret that my pairing of choice is Jack/Doctor. Everything else is gravy.
Jack's smile when he mentioned the Doctor - "my Doctor", he called him - near the beginning of "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" was enough to keep me happy for days. I was thrilled to see Jack cajole Ianto into a date, and thrilled to see him affectionate with Gwen. I prefer slash stories to het, but I think Gwen is so gorgeous that in my heart of hearts I'd love to see her have an affair with Jack. And if he was with Tosh or Owen, I think I'd like that, too.
I don't want to see him settle down with anyone, tamed and domesticized and monogamous. That isn't what Jack is about. His love is wide and deep and expansive and enduring and I love that.
And you know what I love most of all? That we can't predict what's going to happen with any of Jack's relationships. We just don't know.
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no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 02:51 am (UTC)I don't want to see him settle down with anyone, tamed and domesticized and monogamous. That isn't what Jack is about. His love is wide and deep and expansive and enduring and I love that.
Amen.
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:15 am (UTC)I can see why fans would care passionately about which it is, if they have a preference for the one character over the other. Or a preference for slash over het or vice versa.
As long as we're not watching Owen sex scenes instead, liek we got last series, I'm not too bothered.
(Give me Jack/Owen sex scenes and I might reconsider, though it's not my pairing of choice by any means. Funny thing is, in this show, it isn't impossible.)
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 03:22 am (UTC)Yes, that's it. It's all part of a glorious whole picture.
and merrily continue along my little Doctor/Jack shippy way
Uh-huh. There you have it. And I feel that we have that, despite occasional blips that terrify me, and memories that thrill me, and a confidence that whatever happens, I'll always have Jack/Doctor in just the same way that Rick and Ilse will always have Paris.
It's not an either/or, it's totally an and. Several ands, actually.
Yup - rich and variable. It's like a massive gift from the BBC!
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:25 am (UTC)They *can't* take Jack/Doctor from us. In a way I think that accounts for my mellow. I like it. I'm invested in it. It can't be sunk, not entirely. So, whatever they give me ON the screen, I'm going to love. With or without Jack and the Doctor.
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:32 am (UTC)Or the one I'm watching, either -- allegedly the Gwen/Jack scene "came out of nowhere", which, huh? So, the I-teach-you-to-shoot-while-touching-you-inappropriately bit, the two times she kissed him -- they never happened?
That's without getting into the flirtation -- and actually, here's a tangential point: Jack does not flirt with everyone. He doesn't flirt with Owen, for instance. He didn't flirt with John in "Out Of Time" even though he had a profound bond with him. He's a highly sexual person, but he's not actually attracted to every sentient being he meets, and he's sensitive enough to know that it's not always appropriate or wise to express it when he is. So Jack's flirtation is not random noise -- it means something. Not always the same thing -- sometimes it's a device to get people to keep their distance, or put them at their ease -- but something.
...Anyway. The main reason I stopped watching
I find that with Torchwood I ship whatever's-onscreen. :) I was shipping Gwen/Owen during "Countrycide", and Jack/Ianto during "They Keep Killing Suzie", and Jack/Jack during "Captain Jack Harkness"... during "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", I was shipping Jack/John, and Jack/Gwen, and Jack/Ianto. It's all good! ...but I recognise that not everyone can be comfortable with that degree of flexibility. (I might uncharitably suggest that people like that shouldn't be watching Torchwood, but that would be mean.)
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:04 am (UTC)As far as real LOVE though...... I think it has been pretty well established that the only one we see him having that strong an emotion for is the Doctor and Rose, and in a platonic sense, Martha. I did not find myself sensing a sexual/romantic dynamic btwn Martha and Jack except at the very beginning. By the end of their journey together, I was feeling a very strong friend almost sibling like bond btwn them. They commiserate over their un-requited love for the Doctor, they spend a year looking out for each other and saving the world... but when all was said and done their bond was deeper than I think a sexual current would have allowed.
But we find out that Jack went back and watched Rose grow up..... and... as is mentioned above, he refers to the Doctor as "my Doctor". So I'm thinking that right there is his true love. :D (Though he ocassionally lets the Doctor visit the Master. ;) )
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:15 am (UTC)No, that was HAND SEXING - a very nasty thing, and disgusting when done with a woman. (If he had taken Ianto's hand that way, or even crass Captain John's, it would have been a touching gesture of True Love.)
I don't want to drop torch_wood, because it's got good stuff too, but the Gwen bashing drives me nuts. It actually makes me like Gwen MORE, as I leap to defend her.
Jack is not a limited kind of guy. I like Jack/Ianto in fiction, but to be honest I'll read any pairing if the writer convinces me of it - and on the show? Bring it on!
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:16 am (UTC)I guess the joy of Jack is that it's really easy to watch him make out with one person and still ship him with another ; )
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:22 am (UTC)I don't even think she's immature. I think she has a good understanding of people, because she's spent a lot of time thinking about them, actually. She's working her way up to wise; I think back to what she said to Tosh at the end of Greeks Bearing Gifts, and it was so reasonable and intelligent and fair (esp compared to Owen). Sure, her relationship with Rhys is kinda ... from what we've seen, their lives are diverging in a major way. But I think she's very very likable. Oh, fandom *shakes head*
"I find that with Torchwood I ship whatever's-onscreen."
For me, it's kinda the same. All the kisses on Torchwood are good kisses! Though Jack/Gwen would be too messy right now (poor Ianto!), and I just really like Jack/Ianto. A lot. But if some other relationship develops, I won't be surprised if my interest in Jack/Ianto diminishes significantly. I'd be really interested to see Jack/Owen - Owen really wants Jack's approval, so an interesting dynamic there ...
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Date: 2008-01-21 07:47 am (UTC)Wellll... except that Jack's love is also *infinite8, in that he has a literal infinity over which to explore and realise his love for countless people in countless ways. About the only thing that he can't do is be simultaneously monogamous AND all-embracing within the same point in time, as that would kind of nix the monogamy right there.
If, if Jack fell in love with Ianto, say, and decided that what he wanted to be was singularly devoted to him for the entirety of the time they were together, I don't see that being some terrible perversion of the free-wheeling essence of Jack. It might simply be what he wants to be, at that time and in that relationship. He does have whatever it is, trilions of years ahead of him. Bed-hopping his way through them - figuratively and emotionally - would seem as unlikely to me as would the notion that Jack has one great love in the whole of that trillion+ year expanse, and that every other relationship, whatever form it takes, is 'just gravy'.
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Date: 2008-01-21 02:06 pm (UTC)All of that is true. I was upset by the end of "Last of the Time Lords", but then I thought: Their story isn't over. Jack still loves the Doctor. The Doctor still wants Jack with him, and said so. Jack left for other duties. In the grand scheme of things, this is a moment among centuries. It all continues.
And you are so right: They *can't* take Jack/Doctor from us. It's there, like the universe, even if it never gets mentioned again - though I'm sure it will.
Yes, that probably accounts for my mellowness on the matter, too.
There are ways they could screw up - dumb stories, bad writing. But at the moment I have a fair degree of optimism and faith about that. The prognosis is good.
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Date: 2008-01-21 02:13 pm (UTC)I would agree with all of that: I've come to enjoy his role and I might even at some point come to find him marginally attractive. Sexy? Well, I can't yet imagine it, but that might come, too.
I really do think he changed at the end of series 1, particularly from events in "Out of Time" and "End of Days". Truthfully, my fear was that Owen would be 'too nice', and I'm thankful to see the attitude is still there. Just a little less abrasive, just a little less selfish. Growing up a little bit, yes. Good.
I guess the joy of Jack is that it's really easy to watch him make out with one person and still ship him with another ; )
Delightfully true. And it isn't that it's "just sex" - in every case there are actually relationships there, and even profound love (as with Captain Jack Harkness). But that just makes it better. It still doesn't affect whatever relationships we might want to focus on.
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Date: 2008-01-21 02:19 pm (UTC)I'm following your comments about Torchwood for quite a few days now and I really like your opinions on everything!
Short intro of myself: I'm kinda new to Torchwood - long-time John Barrowman fan, but I just got season one DVD box (darn money...) and I'm halfway through it. Really like it! I *have* seen KKBB though... (also a James Marsters fan, so...:-)) but with me being in Germany, methinks I have to wait for season 2 DVD box to see the rest :-( Anyway, besides me doing my fangirl squees elsewhere, I also like to follow your interpretations of the series - would you mind if I friend you?
Oh, and I have a hunch that you are also on the barrowmanonline yahoo group - is that right?
part 1
Date: 2008-01-21 02:41 pm (UTC)Yes, and in many ways I'm as guilty of that as anyone. But Torchwood at the moment is pretty much exactly what I want it to be, at least in terms of relationships. In terms of Jack, and that's what's important to me. How could they ruin it for me? They could give us more episodes like "Random Shoes", which was a good story, and which I enjoyed, but it didn't include Jack thematically.
Or, to borrow Ianto's line, "It's more fun when he's around."
The Torchwood you are watching is not the Torchwood they are watching.
Truly. Sometimes I wonder what some fans are watching.
allegedly the Gwen/Jack scene "came out of nowhere", which, huh? So, the I-teach-you-to-shoot-while-touching-you-inappropriately bit, the two times she kissed him -- they never happened?
Did they miss the long scenes where Jack and Gwen stare into each other's eyes in "Everything Changes", "Day One", "They Keep Killing Suzie", and so on? This they miss the Gwen/Rhys romantic dinner in "Combat" where Gwen fights with Rhys and smiles at the sight of Jack as she runs off to work with him? Did they miss "End of Days" where she sat by his body for days and woke him with a kiss?
The Jack/Gwen UST was an ongoing theme in series 1. You had to work har to miss it.
Jack does not flirt with everyone. He doesn't flirt with Owen, for instance.
Or Tosh. It would be fun to examine why. In Tosh's case, I'd guess it's that she's too lonely and vulnerable to tease. With Owen - is it the same?
part 2
Date: 2008-01-21 02:49 pm (UTC)he's sensitive enough to know that it's not always appropriate or wise to express it when he is.
And he's careful not to transgress the morality of the time and place in which he finds himself, once he can figure out what it is. Respecting the Gwen/Rhys relationship, for example. (Though it may well be that the 51st century has monogamous marriage for those who want it, or celibacy. I picture them as accommodating everyone.)
So Jack's flirtation is not random noise -- it means something. Not always the same thing -- sometimes it's a device to get people to keep their distance, or put them at their ease -- but something.
You're quite right. It means all sorts of things. Sometimes it's a radar-like sensing to see how people will react and get a sense of their personality. Sometimes - well, in most of "Utopia", I think it was a ploy to wind up the Doctor and get his attention. (And it worked.)
I love Gwen; I recognise that she's immature and dishonest and makes very bad decisions, and that's in large part why I love her
Me too. She's interesting. I don't need her to be a saint. I like her flaws, just as I have come to like Owen's flaws, and, for that matter, Ianto's.
This happens over and over again in fandom and it makes me tired. I don't have the energy to combat it.
I don't bother to try: for one thing, all fans are entitled to their opinion. We don't all like the same people or characters. We don't need to. So if the anti-Gwen talk gets me down, I ignore it: it sometimes means ignoring the comms and boards for a while, just writing my fic and talking with my friends - that works. I don't care when friends disagree with me: that can make for good discussions. I often watch the show with
I find that with Torchwood I ship whatever's-onscreen. :)
What fun!
Jack/Jack during "Captain Jack Harkness"...
So romantic.
during "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang", I was shipping Jack/John, and Jack/Gwen, and Jack/Ianto. It's all good!
Yeah, that's how I feel. Each of Jack's relationships is different and each has its own attractions.
(I might uncharitably suggest that people like that shouldn't be watching Torchwood, but that would be mean.)
I think the problem comes from watching Torchwood with the expectations of Disney: that the hero will fall in love with one person and they'll end up living happily ever after. In which case: wrong show, wrong expectations.
This is why I love Torchwood. Well... one of the reasons.
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Date: 2008-01-21 02:58 pm (UTC)Hmm. Interesting comment. I certainly think they are his strongest relationship. I agree with you; but I'm not sure it's not my bias at play here, because that's what I want, that's the relationships that's significant in my head. So I see it as "established" on screen. I'm not sure that isn't subective, since obviously some other fans don't see it that way.
I thought Jack's emotions for Captain Jack Harkness were pretty strong, albeit they were only together for a few hours, which is why it was so intense and difficult.
But also... I feel a little uncomforatble actually comparing Jack's loves. He loves whom he loves and each love is different. This includes acrobats and executioners and Estelle and so on - which look frivolous as presented but it appears to me that Jack's memories of them are loving and strong.
and in a platonic sense, Martha
Martha: the designated virgin. I'm not sure why.
They commiserate over their un-requited love for the Doctor, they spend a year looking out for each other and saving the world... but when all was said and done their bond was deeper than I think a sexual current would have allowed.
I like their relationship as we see it. I'll have to think about your comment. I think that on principle I don't agree - which is not to say that I see it differently, just that, had it gone differently, I don't think sex would have lessened it.
As far as I'm concerned, Jack's love for the Doctor is a constant and unchanging point in his life that will be there as long as he lives (and that's a very long time). The Doctor transformed his life and Jack's time on the TARDIS was the greatest happiness he has experienced.
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:01 pm (UTC)Gasp! Kinky. No wonder I liked it.
Seriously, Jack has a lot of good hand sex moments. Really good. I should make a list. Quite amazing, really.
the Gwen bashing drives me nuts
Aw, just ignore it. Or come hang out with me, I won't bash Gwen even when she annoys me. (Like, "Gwen, what are you thinking, letting Suzie VISIT HER FATHER when you have her in custody and she's just killed a whole bunch of people? are you addled by the glove? are you NUTS?" That sort of rant. But I love her for it anyway.)
It actually makes me like Gwen MORE, as I leap to defend her.
Me too. Or it may just be that the more I watch the show the more I like her. I want to defend her, anyway.
I like Jack/Ianto in fiction, but to be honest I'll read any pairing if the writer convinces me of it - and on the show? Bring it on!
Yes - exactly.
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:06 pm (UTC)No. And if they presented it well, I could be happy with it, but ... I think I might be disappointed. I wouldn't have been disappointed if he had been able somehow to stay with Captain Jack Harkness for the rest of a normal lifetime. I might be less disappointed if Jack opted for monogamy with Gwen, which I don't want, but I'd be more comfortable with it than with Ianto.
And all that really reflects is just my assessment of the characters. I find Gwen more interesting, on the whole, than Ianto - I keep looking for more in Ianto than I actually see there. Maybe it will happen. Meanwhile, I totally love the Jack/Ianto relationship and its progress.
I don't see Jack as bed-hopping. I was trying to imply otherwise: talking about love, not sex. Which isn't to say that Jack isn't into sex. But my point was... is... sex really isn't casual for him.
Do you think he's not in love with Ianto now?
(The 'gravy' comment was from my point of view, not Jack's.)
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Date: 2008-01-21 03:10 pm (UTC)What a nice thing to say. Thank you. *impulsive virtual hug*
long-time John Barrowman fan
Good taste, yes. I'd never heard of him till Doctor Who.
I just got season one DVD box (darn money...)
I don't have it yet - it isn't out here till Tuesday. I've been saving pennies. And dollars. And Future Shop gift cards.
I'm halfway through it. Really like it!
Good. I loved it all - with ups and downs - and thought all the really best stuff was towards the end, so you have a few treats in story. Unfortunately some of the worst stuff is towards the end, too.
also a James Marsters fan
Me too, though I've barely seen Buffy or Angel yet. This will soon change, as a friend is mailing me her copies of Buffy.
Anyway, yes, please do friend me. I look forward to hearing your comments.
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:22 pm (UTC)As for Martha being the perpetual virgin, nah, 'cause in my little universe she and Tom have found each other again and are happy and in lurrrrrrrrve. :D
She just doesn't seem right for Jack in a romantic sense to me. I'm not sure why. I actually adore Martha, and was half rooting for her with the Doctor, but she and Jack just don't "click" for me as a pairing. :)
Eh, I think it comes down to what I said in someone else's LJ: "Jack is an every port in a storm kind of guy" :D
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:24 pm (UTC)Many do. Besides the competition she gives Ianto for Jack's attention, she does some stupid and dishonest things in first season. But I think the root problem is her manner rather than her actions. Hard to say, because I'm not one of the Gwen-haters. I think she's kind of adorable.
She's working her way up to wise
I'd like to think so. I think we've already seen a lot of growth in her, and I love it.
I think back to what she said to Tosh at the end of Greeks Bearing Gifts, and it was so reasonable and intelligent and fair
Yes, I agree. She has no illusions about herself: she knows she makes mistakes, and sometimes gets into situations she has trouble handling. She really does like to help people.
Sure, her relationship with Rhys is kinda ... from what we've seen, their lives are diverging in a major way.
I think the problems with Rhys happened before Jack and Torchwood ever came into her life. In the first conversation we ever see between them, she lies to him about her work. It's very clear she wants more to her life than lasagna and television. She loves Rhys, but doesn't want the dimensions of his life or his lifestyle. It will be interesting to see what happens when he learns about Torchwood. Will he be able to cope and adapt? Will he understand about extraterrestrials, omnisexuals, and shifting Rifts? Will knowing the truth make it easier for him, or harder? We'll see.
All the kisses on Torchwood are good kisses!
Hmm. I'm trying to think of a bad kiss. Maybe the one Owen had with the guy from the pub in "Everything Changes" was bad, bad, bad, but I was delightfully entertained.
I just really like Jack/Ianto
I like the pairing, too. My problem... so far... is that I don't feel there's enough substance to Ianto. And I've always been something of an Ianto fan, especially from "Cyberwoman" and "Countrycide", but...
I'd be really interested to see Jack/Owen - Owen really wants Jack's approval, so an interesting dynamic there ...
I totally love the 'forgiveness' scene between them in "End of Days". Even more than the rather too brief Jack/Ianto kiss. Yes, Owen wants Jack's approval almost as much as Ianto wants his love. And what does Jack feel about Owen? I don't think we've been shown - I wondered for the first part of series 1 why he put up with Owen's insubordination, and why he hired him anyway. By the end of the series I think I was getting hints of clarification, but nothing that I can quite put together and analyse.
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Date: 2008-01-21 04:34 pm (UTC)I agree. It was the most amazingly romantic and intense short story about two lovers that I have ever seen on television. It was wonderful. Nice for me that it featured one of my favourite heroes ever, and a man who was good enough for him.
As for Martha being the perpetual virgin, nah, 'cause in my little universe she and Tom have found each other again and are happy and in lurrrrrrrrve.
Hee. Nice thought. and I think you'll get your wish. I do still hope that before she gets Tom she gets a portion of the Doctor's love, too.
She just doesn't seem right for Jack in a romantic sense to me.
As presented, I agree. But I adore Martha and I adore Jack, so why don't I want them together? The dynamic that we saw in the show builds a situation where they both like each other, and find each other attractive, but each has their romantic/sexual interest so focussed on the Doctor that there's no space for an interest between each other. Moreover, it would be too much of a replay with the relationship as it was between Jack, Rose and the Doctor. All reasons to play it differently.
So I don't see Jack/Martha either, which is a bit of a pity, and I'd like to find a way around it. We shall see...!
I actually adore Martha, and was half rooting for her with the Doctor
Absolutely - I was more than half rooting for it, there. I thought they were both so sexy together in "Smith and Jones", and I don't mean primarily the kiss, but the ending of the show, where first he is flirty and then she is.
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Date: 2008-01-21 06:20 pm (UTC)Though actually, I don't know if I've seen much growth in her. I mean, she's adjusted to Torchwood, to the point where she's giving the orders in "Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang". But dunno about personal development, despite all the stresses she's been under.
Ok, Owen's kiss with the guy from the pub in "Everything Changes" was *morally* bad, but otherwise entirely enjoyable from the viewers' perspective ; )
It's really hard to get into Ianto's head; Jack's as well, but at least Jack gets more lines. Though if you watch Ianto's expressions and body language ... take a look at his hug with Jack in "End of Days", how Ianto kinda holds his arms out a little, elbows still at his sides, without moving forward, and then Jack properly initiates the hug. Dunno if that fills in some of the lack of substance. Ianto's character is *screaming* for some introspective fanfic. Which I'm sure is out there, but I'm a brand new Torchwood fan, so I haven't found - or written - it yet. I'm looking forward to the Jack/Ianto kiss just cuz it's a Jack/Ianto kiss, but I'm also looking forward to what Jack and Ianto say before and after, and also just what brings Ianto to initiate it.
I loved the forgiveness scene, too! Bc I want Owen to be a happier, kinder person. Though you're right, we don't know what Jack sees in Owen.
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Date: 2008-01-21 06:29 pm (UTC)Methinks you'll like Buffy and Angel! Like all serials, it had its ups and downs, but overall I loved it. And James Marsters is definitly a highlight! And, if you get to see Angel, watch out for Christian Kane! Yummy!!:-)
So, Torchwood. I proudly announce that I'm NOT a Gwen hater! I wouldn't say she's my absolute favourite character, I haven't decided that yet (I mean, apart from Jack!) and I think she sometimes uses her puppy dog eyes a little too much, but I can relate to her character. My most memorable moment was in "Countrycide" when this cannibal guy whispered to her "It makes me happy", her reaction to that, I think that was great acting. Yes, big eyes again, but I thought I could hear her thinking "Do I throw up now or do I draw my gun and kill him?" Really scary!
Thanks for commenting in my LJ! I don't write that often in it, I'm more feedback girl...:-)
Next episode in my DVD player is "They keep killing Suzie". See ya later!
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Date: 2008-01-21 06:47 pm (UTC)Wonderful! Congratulations!
I couldn't resist - amazon.co.uk had all five seasons of "Angel" as bargain!
It would probably be better for me not to know that....
James Marsters is definitly a highlight!
I look forward to that.
if you get to see Angel, watch out for Christian Kane!
Will do. (Who does he/she play?)
I proudly announce that I'm NOT a Gwen hater!
Happy to hear it. And really, even if you were, I'd understand. I don't like the way she treats Rhys, particularly the way she lies to him. But that doesn't make me dislike the character - it just makes me hope she learns not to do that. Has maybe already learned.
she sometimes uses her puppy dog eyes a little too much
I wouldn't argue with that, either.
My most memorable moment was in "Countrycide" when this cannibal guy whispered to her "It makes me happy", her reaction to that, I think that was great acting.
Yes, that was an excellent moment. One of her better ones.
I don't write that often in it, I'm more feedback girl...:-)
Great! Whatever you're comfortable with.
Next episode in my DVD player is "They keep killing Suzie". See ya later!
Oh, enjoy! There are some wonderful Ianto moments in that, and a great Jack/Ianto scene. And Gwen is... interesting.
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Date: 2008-01-21 06:57 pm (UTC)Yes. There are scenes in which she is annoying and artificial - and other scenes in which she's brave and smart and honest. Personally, I thought she was so sexy and lovely in "Everything Changes" that I was willing to cut her a lot of slack. She continues to have good moments and bad moments and I have no problem with that.
Many viewers see her as 'holier than thou' but I think that's misinterpreting her. As she said to Tosh in "Greeks Bearing Gifts", she doesn't feel she can judge others, she has her own set of sins. And that's one of the things I love about her. She challenges people - but usually doesn't judge them.
I find it easy to be sympathetic to Gwen, even though there are many times I'm screaming at her, "Gwen, don't do that! Gwen, how can you be so stupid!"
I'm hoping and assuming that her assumption of authority in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" is associated with at least some increase in maturity and responsibility - not telling Rhys unnecessary lies, for example. But. We really don't know yet. I'm giving her the benefit of various doubts.
Ok, Owen's kiss with the guy from the pub in "Everything Changes" was *morally* bad, but otherwise entirely enjoyable from the viewers' perspective ; )
My attitiude exactly!
It's really hard to get into Ianto's head; Jack's as well, but at least Jack gets more lines.
I find it very, very easy to get into Jack's head. I don't think there's a scene he's had yet where I've been unclear about his feelings and thought processes. Jack is totally transparent to me... Now, I might, of course, be wrong in my interpretations, but so far I haven't been revealed to be. Which gives me hope. I think I read Jack right. He's the character I can't help identifying with.
Ianto: not so much. If he is as I see him, he's very... narrow in scope. I hope there's more that I'm not seeing.
Ianto's character is *screaming* for some introspective fanfic. Which I'm sure is out there
Yes, there are vast amounts of it, and some of it very good. Enjoy!
I want Owen to be a happier, kinder person
Yes - but not to entirely lose his edge.
I'd love to know why Jack hired Ianto, Tosh and Owen in the first place. (Even Suzie, assuming he hired Suzie. But I think now he hired all of them.) I have a theory that he hired Ianto and Toshiko because they had contact with the Doctor. But Owen? As far as we know, he never has. It remains an open question.
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Date: 2008-01-21 07:59 pm (UTC)That's one of the things which puts me strongly off the fandoms that obsess over non-canonical m/m slash (besides the fact that, while I like it when a show is canonically inclusive of gay/bi characters, I don't see the appeal of making male characters gay for kicks): female misogyny. I do not understand women who are so anti-women, often while complaining that there aren't enough good female characters in fandom.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 08:25 pm (UTC)I think it's one of the big Torchwood points that every character has its flaw - Owen is sometimes downright mean (poor Tosh) but he grows on me. Gwen lies to Rhys, bad thing! But I can somehow understand - it's her way not to get crazy. Even Jack has his mean moments compared to Doctor Who season one - this whole "cannot die" thing did change him, no wonder! But I think that keeps it interesting. They can do the whole "team without edges" thing later:-)
Oh, and Christian Kane plays Lindsey McDonald. He is in season 1, 2 and 5. Lawyer with a conscience:-) you never know if he's good or bad. Oh, and he's a great singer!
Now, back to Torchwood - I can do one more episode tonight!:-)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 08:35 pm (UTC)Gnerally speaking, I think the characterization of women is getting better all the time. And I'm thrilled to see it.
In other shows - Firefly, for example - I've liked the women very much. And I think the female characters on Doctor Who and Torchwood are terrific - some I like, some I don't, just as with the male characters.
Which is as it should be.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 09:01 pm (UTC)Generally speaking, I think the characterization of women is getting better all the time. And I'm thrilled to see it.
Yes, things are improving, I'm glad to say. But even when female characters are underwritten or badly written, surely that's why fanfic exists – to remedy deficiencies in the original by developing them further?
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 10:33 pm (UTC)If we're honest, we know we'd do dumb stuff like that if we were in Torchwood, because in our own lives we do stuff like hitting "Reply all" to a snarky email, or forgetting to lock up the laptop...
no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 02:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 02:37 am (UTC)I like to do that, or at least to find explanations for their actions.
They Keep Killing Suzie
Date: 2008-01-22 02:45 am (UTC)Yes!
I think the Suzie actress does a great job - from sympathetic to scary in a split second!
Yes. I also really like her looks.
I wonder when resp. how the team will find out Jack cannot die - they seem to know in KKBB and I think they already suspect something.
Keep on watching... it will come.
Owen is sometimes downright mean (poor Tosh) but he grows on me.
Yes. I think Owen is beautifully written. Each episode adds to our understanding of him. He isn't always sympathetic but he's consistently interesting.
I can do one more episode tonight!:-)
So - "Random Shoes"?
no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 04:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 04:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 11:46 am (UTC)Re: They Keep Killing Suzie
Date: 2008-01-22 12:05 pm (UTC)What I really liked? In contrary to the things Suzie said about being dead, Eugene's fading in the end seems to imply something else, it did not seem darkness to me. That was nice. And Gwen was cool in that!
I've seen in your archive that you have commented on every episode - I'm gonna read that and leave my comments there so not to spam this one, would that be ok?
And by the way, I started "Anything Goes" yesterday, just a few pages because I was so curious. It's fabulous! Written like he talks, bubbling with energy, not exactly chronological and full of innuendo. Great! Can't wait to finish it!
Re: They Keep Killing Suzie
Date: 2008-01-22 12:19 pm (UTC)Random Shoes. ... had very little Jack in it :-(
That's the problem with it. Good story, but no Jack.
Gwen was cool in that
Yes. I liked the way she didn't give up till she had the answers she wanted.
I've seen in your archive that you have commented on every episode - I'm gonna read that and leave my comments there so not to spam this one, would that be ok?
That's great.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 12:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 12:21 pm (UTC)Yes, he can be less clear with his intentions, especially when he doesn't want to telegraph his intent. And that can be fun, too.