The baby and the bathwater...

[fajrdrako]

If the temperature in the bathtub is raised only one degree every ten minutes, how does the bather know when to start screaming? - Marshall McLuhan, 1911 - 1980

When it starts to hurt, of course. This is one of those statements which - it seems to me - confuses the theory of an event with the experience of an event. We don't scream because water burns us at a certain temperature, we scream because it hurts. Doesn't matter what the temperature is. Pain is pain.

Reality does not depend on our knowledge or understanding of it.

Comments

[dewline.livejournal.com]

A good answer.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There's another angle on it, too: that we can acclimatize ourself to discomfort, living with pain for so long that we learn to (or try to) ignore or deny it. But that isn't good to us: most people break under the strain. Because the temperature, and the bearability of the sensation, aren't really under our control.

And it doesn't change the temperature of the water.

[dewline.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't. Never does.

[squashed.livejournal.com]

I think, in the case of the bathwater, if it starts out at the perfect temperature, and you only make it go up a degree, your body barely notices the change, and on top of that your body has ten minutes to acclimatize to it. Then it goes up another degree, but it's only a degree so your body barely notices and you have ten minutes to acclimatize to it. Etc.

So the problem is, by going up that single degree so slowly, you don't *realize* that at some point your skin is burning.

I know when I take a long shower, I wind up slowly decreasing the cold water in order to make it continue to seem nice and hot and by the time I get out, my skin is pink (and sometimes red if I've spent a particularly long time in the shower) from the heat and I've turned the cold almost completely off. If I were to step into that shower that hot to start with, I'd scream and say it was too hot.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

stepping into the too hot bath is a different experience from getting to it gradually. I think you start might start screaming (or even better, getting out!) later with the gradual process, but you will notice it nevertheless.

I think I've seen this also used as a metaphor for disfunctional/abusive relationships. They start out ok and gradually more and more things go wrong, but because you've grown into the relationship and have invested in it. (And yes, shaped your reality around it) People let things go on way beyond the level they would have if it had started out that way. I think there is some truth to that.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Well, personally I'd get out of the bath before I reached the point of screaming in pain.

I hate questions like that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'd get out of the bath before I reached the point of screaming in pain.


I think that means you have some common sense!

[jkluge.livejournal.com]

Also, at one degree every ten minutes, wouldn't the temperature of the water also decrease in that ten minutes, by at least a degree or more?

Granted, with the time frame involved (and assuming their is no loss of heat in those ten-minute intervals), it might take longer for discomfort to be felt, since the body might adjust beyond what is good for a person...but, as you say, *not* past the point of pain.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

I had the same thought. And if it raises by one degree from where it was when the bath started, that'll be a noticeable increase as a result.

As a metaphor, this one smells really bad. Which, as metaphors go, sucks by its own self...

[sraun]

I think his point is less about whether or not you feel pain, and more about when.

Did you know that you can boil a live frog, and it will never attempt to jump out of the pot? You put the frog in the pot in room temperature water, and put it under slow heat - probably faster than 1 degree/ten minutes, I'd have to go check references. Regardless, you do it slowly enough and the frog never hurts, it just suddenly dies.

Unfortunately, in rather broad ranges, our reaction to pain is strongly influenced by a difference in sensation. You can get quite severely damaged before you notice the pain, as long the cause comes on slowly. Ask most any arthritis sufferer - I think the same is true for fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think you would realize that your skin was burning as soon as it actually started to get too hot to be comfortable. I see what you're saying - but a burn is a burn, a point at which the nerves can no longer stand the heat. Boil water slowly, or boil it fast, the effect will be the same.

Admittedly, you can acclimatize yourself to hot water by increasing the temperature slowly. But I don't believe this means I could tolerate hotter temperatures.

It's not something I am willing to experiment with to check out, however!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, there's definitely a truth to the psychological effect. I just don't think it translates to physical sensation.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yup, I agree. We need metaphors that really make sense!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I' not sure I believe that I would keep my hand in too-hot water even if it were heating slowly. My pain tolerance is generally very low!

As for the pain of fibromyalgia: I think that's part of the process I mentioned before, of controlling pain psychologically, or denying it, or ignoring it. One can also use certain physiological or psychological techniques to lesson pain or its effects - meditation, breath control, that kind of thing.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've never seen a water heater that put out enough hot water to make the experiment possible [g].

Or a burner big enough to hold a bathtub [g].

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

REFUTED! (http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp)


(I knew frogs weren't that goofy.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the evidence: I found it hard to believe, but didn't have the story to hand. It just ran contrary to the way I believe the world to be. Of course, some things do. But... common sense counts for a lot, and I try not to believe things just because they are said.

And frogs can be pretty goofy.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've never seen a water heater that put out enough hot water to make the experiment possible [g].

I don't think I want to.

Nor do I intend to sit still in the water for such an experiment to take place.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I find www.snopes.com to be my very best friend when it comes to this kind of thing. I'm usually reassured to learn that something's not true, but from time to time I've been amazed to learn that something actually IS!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. I should remember to look at it more often. I often hear things that just don't sound right but said with such authority that my faith wavers. I must remember that there's somewhere to check.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I have relatives who tend to forward me things a lot. :-P

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

I too think so.

Another factor is that the hot water is *itself* cooling off. So the hot water temperature at the start of a shower is *much* hotter than that same source by the end of a (long enough) shower.

I think Marshall McLuhan was trying to express a conundrum or paradox in that saying. It only exists because the language supports it, but it isn't truly logical (and probably will not translate to other languages either).

[auriaephiala.livejournal.com]

It's possible: you get a demand (instantaneous or tankless) water heater. Since the water is being heated up as you request it, you can't run out. See http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12820 .

We have one as part of our gas boiler/heating system.

that we can acclimatize ourself to discomfort, living with pain for so long that we learn to (or try to) ignore or deny it. But that isn't good to us: most people break under the strain.

That's very true: there was a news story out just this week that indicated a strong link between continued stress and increased risk of heart attacks.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think Marshall McLuhan was trying to express a conundrum or paradox in that saying.

I think so. And the specific example is false. I'm not sure if the generality of the statement is true - in fact, I'm arguing that it's false in general: that if, say, you decrease light so slowly that you can't notice the change from minute to minute or hour to hour - you may not notice at first that it's getting darker, but as soon as there is not enough light to see by, you will be well aware of it.

In other words, slowing the speed of something may change the rate of our perceptions of it (as it should), but it doesn't change the nature of our senses.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

How handy!

I have many friends who forward me things - sometimes I read them, sometimes I just delete them, sometimes I just shrug... and sometimes they're worth reading.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

there was a news story out just this week that indicated a strong link between continued stress and increased risk of heart attacks.

I believe it. I've seen the strain of people under continuous pain. It's awful in so many ways - psychological as well as physical. And having one thing wrong tends to lead to having other things wrong.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I have a bad tendency to reply and give them links debunking whatever it is. I'm kind of pedantic that way; haha, I'm sure my aunts enjoy me lecturing them on the interwebs.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think that's good - hopefully your aunts will learn something from it all, including not taking things at face value.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on this one, totally. Confusing the reality with the artificial means of measuring it (the sensation of the heat of the water, versus what an arbitrary number on a measuring device says at any given point) is superficial thinking, in my opinion.

However, this does remind me of the experiment (which once actually was carried out by a young woman, age 15 or so, in the local 4H club) of: lift a calf the day it is born, and lift it on every day after that, and before you know it, it weighs 300 pounds and you still are lifting it each day as usual.

This made the local paper, and I was of course envious of the girl who had done it, as I didn't have the opportunity to raise a calf for 4H myself, alas.

Way cool, I'd say.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

superficial thinking, in my opinion.

It's applying subjective experience to a situation where subjectivity is beside the point.

lift a calf the day it is born, and lift it on every day after that, and before you know it, it weighs 300 pounds and you still are lifting it

The moral to that story is: Lift weights every day, and you'll be strong!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

The moral to that story is: Lift weights every day, and you'll be strong!

Or: believe, and you can. You do create your own reality. Something like that.

I encounter smaller versions of this daily, with my coworkers who refuse to speak up to stop jobsite bullying "because it won't do any good even if I do." Therefore, the bullying goes on, and their helplessness continues, and at a certain point you'd think they'd realize what a self-fulfilling prophecy that has become...? But they do not.

Anyway. If you believe you can't, then you can't -- hm?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I certainly believe that if you think you can't, you can't.

I'm not sure if I believe that you can if you think you can. I do believe it's usually worth trying - sucess is not a guarantee in this world, but you'll never know unless you try. And sometimes (as with the bullying), trying is very important.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Agreed, "I think I can" does not mean you actually can. But trying is what matters. And, as for the bullying, if you try to stand up against it and fail, that's also a success, because someone else will then try, and someone after that, until you can all stand up together -- and that will do it. Fear is a great motivator, but people also have a strong need to protect other people, I have seen.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

True on all points.