I said: "the Doctor...in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack." I should perhaps add that I don't think it's that he gives nothing to Jack - I think he gives him a lot - but not in terms of reciprocality or what is owed. More like a free gift. In several senses, the Doctor has given Jack back his whole life - he saves him from both physical and spiritual death. And then Rose makes him Immortal. It isn't that no one ever gives Jack anything! But where Jack and the Doctor are concerned, the terms are not equal. Not ever. Between Jack and Martha, they are.
Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).
Yes - the Doctor even deliberately assumes a "commanding officer" role in "Boom Town", which is a very cute moment, and unusual for him.
Interesting "Peter Pan" comments, which I will consider. Perhaps my lack of understanding is because I haven't seen the Doctors previous to Nine. I can see that he is... that the Doctor has playful aspects that we don't usually associate with adults, and in some ways he is oddly socialized in ways we associate more with children - being honest to the point of rudeness, for example. But I have trouble seeing the Doctor as either childish or immature, or having the attitude to life that Peter Pan has. He's colossally mature when he wants to be. Perhaps it is all the effect of his being whimsical, and his sense of glee in situations where most human adults would think it inappropriate? (When in danger, for example. Or when faced with an alien werewolf.)
The wonderful thing about it all is that whether he is Peter Pan or not, whether he has fallen too far to the dark/twisted side of his personality, or whether he is simply changeable, he has this wonderful multifaceted personality that is very strong and vivid and loveable (usually) and in some ways unlike anything else in literature. Endlessly fun to study and analyze.
Yes, I like the Wise Fool metaphor. I'm going to think about it and see if I can write something coherent about it. Or not. Or just incorporate it as a theme in fiction. Right now I mostly want to write tender or passionate Ten/Jack scenes to comfort myself about their mutual love!
the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...
It's maybe my favourite poem of all time, and Odysseus in it is one of my favourite examples of a hero. I love it that I can apply that same poem to Jack.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-21 02:01 am (UTC)Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).
Yes - the Doctor even deliberately assumes a "commanding officer" role in "Boom Town", which is a very cute moment, and unusual for him.
Interesting "Peter Pan" comments, which I will consider. Perhaps my lack of understanding is because I haven't seen the Doctors previous to Nine. I can see that he is... that the Doctor has playful aspects that we don't usually associate with adults, and in some ways he is oddly socialized in ways we associate more with children - being honest to the point of rudeness, for example. But I have trouble seeing the Doctor as either childish or immature, or having the attitude to life that Peter Pan has. He's colossally mature when he wants to be. Perhaps it is all the effect of his being whimsical, and his sense of glee in situations where most human adults would think it inappropriate? (When in danger, for example. Or when faced with an alien werewolf.)
The wonderful thing about it all is that whether he is Peter Pan or not, whether he has fallen too far to the dark/twisted side of his personality, or whether he is simply changeable, he has this wonderful multifaceted personality that is very strong and vivid and loveable (usually) and in some ways unlike anything else in literature. Endlessly fun to study and analyze.
Yes, I like the Wise Fool metaphor. I'm going to think about it and see if I can write something coherent about it. Or not. Or just incorporate it as a theme in fiction. Right now I mostly want to write tender or passionate Ten/Jack scenes to comfort myself about their mutual love!
the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...
It's maybe my favourite poem of all time, and Odysseus in it is one of my favourite examples of a hero. I love it that I can apply that same poem to Jack.