Torchwood: Small Worlds...

[fajrdrako]

Captain Jack Harkness meets up with some elementals.

I though this was a well-crafted episode, but I wasn't as emotionally involved as last week.

The best things were:

1. The relationship between Jack and Estelle. Very reminiscent of Highlander, but also dissimilar and (so typical with this show) not emotionally simple or straightforward. What was it Jack said - "a lot of promises were broken in those days"? Made me take a deep breath.


2. Gwen's place being trashed. Scary.


3. The intriguing scenes of Jack in Lahore in 1909. A quick look at wikipedia doesn't tell me about any particular wars in the Punjab in 1909; so why was Jack there, why then? Just hanging out with the British army? Was this about the diamond scam, and if so, why was Jack feeling responsible for his soldiers?


4. I see considerable discussion about Jack's timeline. It is still unclear whether he was dashing back and forth in time either as a con artist or a Time Agent, or living an extended life in immortal form, with changes in identity or location from decade to decade. The difference between the Doctor Who pattern of story, or the Highlander pattern. I find this intriguing, and I'm in no hurry to find out the truth. I become increasingly curious as to how old Jack actually is, and how many years have passed for him since The Parting of the Ways.


5. It is interesting that Jack is becoming more and more forthcoming to Gwen about his past, or at least about pieces of his past. His relationship with Estelle, for example.


6. I'd have called the fairy-creatures 'elementals' myself. The "Mara" Jack talked about are described in Wikipedia here. As often happens in this show, certain elements of the mythology made me think of Neil Gaiman.


7. I liked Estelle. She reminded me of Ten's comments in the School Reunion episode of Doctor Who about the difficulty of watching those you care for age and die.


8. I like the moment between Jack and Ianto, and its various implications - though others don't seem to have thought it was as ambiguous as I did. Jack, I think, is trying to make peace with Ianto. Ianto is still distressed, but coping. Or am I wrong? I don't like Ianto as much as many viewers seem to - but he does have an interesting role, and I can't predict where they're going with him.


9. Captain Jack's nightmare led me to wonder: does he not sleep because he doesn't need to, or does he not sleep because he is afraid to?


10. I loved it that Jack sent Jasmine to live with the fairies. It was her choice, after all. I like Jack with children, just as I liked the Doctor with children.


11. Not as sensuous as some episodes. I've come to hope for scenes like the gun scene, or the Gwen-snogs-the-alien scene. Ah well.

Comments

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

Re Lahore: I say the goal was to steal a load of diamonds. At least that's what I got from this pdf (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/torchwood/5lahore-letter.pdf). I guess you might have read it, but...
I really love the way he acted, how horrified he was at the death of his squad.

I also think the real reason why he was in Lahore will be very unclear until it's more obvious how he got there - as part of the Time Agents, or on his own.

Re Estelle. I like Estelle too. Very much so. She was so... innocent. I really hated the fairies/elementals/whatever when they killed her. Killing the pedophile was a good deed. Killing Estelle... wasn't. She was trying to be good to them, IIRC - she was asking "let them find a girl", wasn't she? Oh well. I'm still not perfectly clear on _why_ the killed her too. :-/

I don't think Jack had a nightmare. I think it was a flashback. A nightmarish flashback, but one of real memory rather than sleep-dreaming. Real enough, as I think the fairies might have been close, with the rose petal he found on his desk when he woke.

I wonder... Jack tells Ianto "You shouldn't be here", and Ianto answers "neither should you". What does he mean? It doesn't make sense if Jack is living in the hub. Or did I mishear that?

I don't love it that Jack send Jas to live with the fairies, but I wonder at the team - how mad they were at him. I think it was the only thing he could do. I wonder if the fairies would be allies to Torchwood if Earth was really under attack... on the threat that if Earth is destroyed, there will be no more Chosen Ones. Also, I think that with the fairies travelling in time, Jasmine had to go with them. Things that happened cause things in the future to... have happened, I guess.

For me, the emotional parts were Estelle's death... and the devastation of Jasmine's mother. She lost her partner and her daughter... to what she cannot understand. And she had done nothing wrong. (Nor had Rhys, to have his flat ransacked, for that matter).

A point I liked about the ransacked flat scene - Gwen and Rhys are coming home together. I think that means that they do spend time together, for me. Gwen is not all obsessed by her work, and the impact on her relationship is not that horrible as it is expected to be. (I would have liked to see what happens after The Ghost Machine, how Gwen handles her life with Rhys, knowing she has killed a man - or at least assisted his suicide.)

Another point I liked was Gwen getting very angry at Jack - "tell me!" It wasn't the best acting I'd seen, but it was the character doing something different from just... accepting things and reacting - she was struggling to understand.

I think that the scene with Jack crying was extremely sensuous, in its special way.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I really love the way he acted, how horrified he was at the death of his squad.

Looks as if it might be another incident as in "The Empty Child", where Jack starts out with a scam and ends up learning a moral lesson and regretting what his actions set in motion.

I also think the real reason why he was in Lahore will be very unclear until it's more obvious how he got there - as part of the Time Agents, or on his own.

Yes, and when (in his own timeline) it happened to him. I think there's a big divide psychologically in what happened to him before and after he met the Doctor, and after, though it could be my wishful thinking.

I think the elementals killed Estelle for the fun of it. For no real reason. Or maybe because she was photographing them, and they didn't want to be photographed and shown to the world.

I don't think Jack had a nightmare. I think it was a flashback. A nightmarish flashback, but one of real memory rather than sleep-dreaming.

Yes, I think that's probably right. Poor Jack.

I wonder... Jack tells Ianto "You shouldn't be here", and Ianto answers "neither should you". What does he mean? It doesn't make sense if Jack is living in the hub. Or did I mishear that?

I'm not sure Ianto knows that Jack is living in the hub. I'm not sure any of them know, though Gwen probably guesses. I think Ianto thinks Jack has a home to go to, even if it's just a bachelor apartment somewhere. I think Jack keeps up these illusions to appear more 'normal' than he actually is.

don't love it that Jack send Jas to live with the fairies, but I wonder at the team - how mad they were at him. I think it was the only thing he could do.

I agree. Not to mention being the right thing to do. I think the others were reacting out of fear (of the fairies) rather than thinking it through. Ignoring the fact that Jasmine liked the fairies and wanted to be with them, and was unhappy with humans.

Also, I think that with the fairies travelling in time, Jasmine had to go with them. Things that happened cause things in the future to... have happened, I guess.

Hee - yes - can't mess with the timelines, even if they're going backwards!

For me, the emotional parts were Estelle's death... and the devastation of Jasmine's mother. She lost her partner and her daughter... to what she cannot understand. And she had done nothing wrong.

And she really loved them both. She was the innocent casualty of the story, along with Estelle.

(I would have liked to see what happens after The Ghost Machine, how Gwen handles her life with Rhys, knowing she has killed a man - or at least assisted his suicide.)

I wonder if she discussed it with him, skipping the alien details. So far all we've seen her tell him about her work has been lies, or pretending nothing has happened when something has. I guess he's met Jack now... I wonder if she ever talks to Rhys about him.

Another point I liked was Gwen getting very angry at Jack - "tell me!" It wasn't the best acting I'd seen, but it was the character doing something different from just... accepting things and reacting - she was struggling to understand.

Uh-huh, I agree. I'd like to see Gwen be a little more assertive. Active rather than reactive.

I think that the scene with Jack crying was extremely sensuous, in its special way.

I thought so too. Scenes like this so happily reinforce my fascination with Jack.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

I think the elementals killed Estelle for the fun of it. For no real reason. Or maybe because she was photographing them, and they didn't want to be photographed and shown to the world.

Almost what I think - except that if they disliked her photographing them, they would have most likely killed her when she was still in the woods. Maybe.
My guess is that they associated her with Jack. And I think they _think_ there is something that Jack has yet to do for them, or can do against them - although obviously not at this point - and they want him to fear them.

I'm not sure Ianto knows that Jack is living in the hub. I'm not sure any of them know, though Gwen probably guesses.

I don't think it's a guess, exactly. IIRC, he as much as told her so, in the end of the shooting scene. :) But you may be right about the others not knowing. Hmm.

I think the others were reacting out of fear (of the fairies) rather than thinking it through.

Yes, I think that's it. They were maybe also reacting to the pain of Jas's mother, and also to the disappointment that Jack is not powerful enough, or willing enough, to save a child. This episode's gist for me was that the viewers find that Jack can do wrong by his teem. He looked... infallible, before, somehow.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

That pat on the back almost made me a J/I shipper.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well... it was lovely, wasn't it?

I can certainly see the attraction of Jack/Ianto slash (which I've been reading), and I absolutely love the interaction between them - but still don't find Ianto quite interesting enough to be, well, interesting.

My preferred pairing for Jack is the Doctor. Either Doctor. With or without Rose. That's what thrills my fannish heart. Failing that, I love his relationship with Gwen - which I can see as being beautifully sexy and sensual even as it stands so far onscreen. Ianto doesn't interest me much and Owen hardly at all, but there's lots of potential where Jack is concerned.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

I'd say that, unless the fairies knew that Jack had to be kept safe, the Lahore incident was post-Doctor. ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can see various ways to look at this. I like the interpretation that Lahore was post-Doctor. Thing is, we don't know why the fairies let Jack live - because he's immortal? because they are afraid of the Doctor? (As they should be.) Because he has a role to play?

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

I suppose they would be afraid of the Doctor/Tardis/BadWolf, wouldn't they? It hadn't occurred to me that, while they're not easy to stop or pin down, they are still part of time (unlike Satan Pit).

Hmmm.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Also it's probably just not worth it... "He just won't die! All we're doing is giving him indigestion!"

hee

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

I think it was, according to the PDF on the web site, because of the fact that he wasn't with the team when the accident with the Chosen One happened. Which doesn't help in referencing Pre- or Post-Doctor Jack, but it makes sense to me.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

Oh, so what do you think Jack had for a drink? Def. not supervodka :)

Also, a comment - I thought the fairies were too Gollum-like. Especially in the first part of the episode. In the end, when faces can be seen, they sort of are different, but otherwise... even the sounds they make remind me of Gollum.

Also, if you are correct about Jack not losing his ability to travel in time, and I guess you are, the two theories (pre-doctor TA Jack, or post-doctor Jack who has lived sequentially since 1909 to the TW-day Cardiff) may be both wrong.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Also: I ♥ that icon. Guh.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

From what was said in the ep, it implied that not all of the rest of the carriage were either [perhaps that's just me]. I need to go see that pdf.

[kikibug13.livejournal.com]

Most of them weren't directly involved in the incident, but the PDF (http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/torchwood/5lahore-letter.pdf) implied that Jack wasn't even with the group - he was far enough that his - 2IC? - wrote him a letter.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Good episode, and one that struck several chords with me:

The W B Yeats allusions - from the start, the færies addressing Jasmine "Come away, human child" - from The Stolen Child, and perhaps also the red roses (To the Rose upon the Rood of Time, & c.)

Jasmine's treatment by the other schoolgirls, and then being bullied again when the 2 girls thought she had told the teacher about them - That was painful, painful... From the age of 5 to 15, I was in Jasmine's shoes, with no færies to watch over me, because I was different... I had my parents and my books.

I think the færies felt threatened by Estelle because she had gone public with them, giving a lecture.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I suppose they would be afraid of the Doctor/Tardis/BadWolf, wouldn't they?

Yes. My reasoning was that they are attached to the Earth (and to time) but not to humanity. The Doctor has made himself the protector and champion of humanity. They might well be masters of weather, but he is the Oncoming Storm and I don't think they'd want to anger him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, good point - indigestion and a bad temper!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As usual, we don't have a lot of information, but I think what we have supports that at least as a good working theory.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

so what do you think Jack had for a drink? Def. not supervodka :)

Hee. No. Maybe scotch?

I thought the fairies were too Gollum-like.

I hadn't thought about. So obviously it didn't strike me at the time as being too derivative - we'll see what I think when I watch it again.

if you are correct about Jack not losing his ability to travel in time, and I guess you are, the two theories (pre-doctor TA Jack, or post-doctor Jack who has lived sequentially since 1909 to the TW-day Cardiff) may be both wrong.

Yes. I haven't much of a notion which theory to opt for: they all fit the evidence, more or less, as far as I can see. We need to see more episodes....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Uh-huh. Me too. A great icon is a thing of beauty.

(Love yours too!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The W B Yeats allusions - from the start, the færies addressing Jasmine "Come away, human child"

Yes, wasn't that good? They really managed to infuse the story with the nuance of myth and literary background.

Yes, the bullying was pretty hard to watch.

I think the færies felt threatened by Estelle because she had gone public with them, giving a lecture.

I would agree.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I recall being pushed over in the playground just like that, many times. And when I was 15 - the last and worst incident - I was given a black eye and a bloody nose by a girl who barged into our classroom and hit me in the face because she thought I had told a teacher on her for calling me names as I walked down the drive into school. (I didn't even know her name: the teacher had happened to overhear her being generally verbally abusive.)

And people wonder why I regard children en masse with a mixture of dread and animosity...

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

The færies reminded me more of the Gremlins! A bit reptilian.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Quite rightly, too. Not that there aren't nice children. But there are bullies, and the world of childhood is much more savage than the world of adults.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. It was creepy the way they moved.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yes. Children are instinctively fascistic: conformist, and extremely violent to anyone who does not 'fit in'. I hated having to be with other children. No adult ever hit me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think adults are much more altruistic or kind at heart to outsider types, but they tend to handle it a lot better, and more politely.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I disagree: I think adults generally are better about not conforming, and more accepting of diversity. Certainly that's been my experience. I think a lot of us were able to blossom at university. The sad thing is, life afterwards never lives up to it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think some people (like us) are able to blossom at university because we are among people of similar type, goals and intelligence - not the general population, such as happens in grade school, where everyone is there only because they have to be there.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Insane government notions (driven by the desire to make youth unemployment look lower) to get 50% of the young population into university have meant lowering of academic standards, students having to work and take out loans to finance their studies, and a falling-off of the quality of the experience all round. And of course, it means they end up flipping burgers in MacDonalds, because there aren't enough graduate jobs at the end of it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I disapprove strongly of all of this.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup. When they decided to turn the polytechnics into universities, all the polys decided to reinvent themselves as academic institutions. Not enough young folk are training in trades and crafts, partly as a result. So we end up with a plethora of kids with degrees of questionable worth (often in academically dubious subjects such as tourism and media studies: there are shortages of language graduates and scientists) serving in cafés or on the dole, and importing skilled trades and craftspeople from former Eastern Europe.

My problem is finding myself in competition for graduate jobs with younger people whose first degree may look the same as mine on paper, but which has been less demanding: heavily skewed towards course-work, and 'modular' courses. (I have a PhD, but that seems to be regarded as a handicap in a lot of circles.) I'm quite glad I didn't get a permanent post in university teaching; my lecturer friends are pretty disillusioned. They know standards have fallen, but they are expected to stay 'on message'. Only 2 people got Firsts in my year in my subject (I wasn't one of them!); now a First is not exceptional. Human intelligence does not evolve that quickly.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

In other words, standards are plummetting. I wish I could say I don't believe this is happening in Canada too (or elsewhere in the world) but I think it's universal. It's part and parcel of the thinking that makes the educational institutions hesitate to give a failing grade to a kid who knows nothing, or who maybe isn't capable of learning. It isn't education that's at stake so much as scholarship, learning, and fostering intellectual values - which will never be, and should never be, universal in a population. Yes, there should be education for all, but the higher levels of academia should be reserved for those who can most effectively use it.

[athousanderrors.livejournal.com]

I think the elementals killed Estelle for the fun of it. For no real reason. Or maybe because she was photographing them, and they didn't want to be photographed and shown to the world.

Like kikibug below, I think it's the connection to Jack. That's why he looks so devastated when he finds her. Not just because he loved her, and she's dead, but because in some way it's his fault.

Of course, it could just be for the fun of it; they don't seem to have any logic, they play with people's lives.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Do you think we will ever learn more about this?

[elebridith]

Small worlds. Not as emotional as "Cyber Woman" but scary in a completely different way. Russell T. Davies says in some making-of that there is nothing scarier than a child, and boy, do I agree. Great little actress! Always so innocent, and then the look she throws her stepfather, you instantly know he's doomed! And the faery voices were great! *shivers*
What I did not really get though - why did Estelle drown? Are they holding her down or something? When it starts to rain, why doesn't she try and find shelter? They closed the door, ok, but anywhere else? Under a tree?
What else? Mmmm, shirtless John. Absolute plus point!
I liked how they put "Lord of the dance" in the storm scene - nice contrast there.
The relationship between Estelle and Jack. Sweet and touching!
And another difficult decision for Jack to make - and could the whole bloody team at least *once* trust him? I mean, they all saw what these creatures could do and it's not like Jas does not want to go! Of course, all pity to her mum, poor woman! But it's not like Jack had slaughtered Jas or something. But hey, Gwen, you SAW your place, girl! Want to hail that down on more people? Would they have reacted the same way if the chosen one had been an adult, I ask meself.
Nevertheless, great episode.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Small worlds. Not as emotional as "Cyber Woman" but scary in a completely different way.

Yes, and with a different kind of angst for Captain Jack. I hated the way the team disapproved of his choice - though I saw their point - and his.

Great little actress!

She was excellent. Smart and creepy and sort of sad all at once.

What I did not really get though - why did Estelle drown? Are they holding her down or something?

I think the faeries prevented her from moving, so she was helpless.

shirtless John. Absolute plus point!

No complaints. None at all. I really liked him in the 1909 uniform too.

I liked how they put "Lord of the dance" in the storm scene - nice contrast there.

I'd forgotten that - yes, great touch.

The relationship between Estelle and Jack. Sweet and touching!

I loved it. Wrote a story about them, too.

and could the whole bloody team at least *once* trust him?

Trust isn't their best thing. I do not approve!

they all saw what these creatures could do and it's not like Jas does not want to go

I agree. Where the faeries are concerned there is precious little they can do and Jack knows it. So the Team expects him to - what? Take on all of faerie? Change Jasmine's mind?

Would they have reacted the same way if the chosen one had been an adult, I ask meself.

Very interesting question! That would be an interesting story to see.

[elebridith]

Oh, a Jack/Estelle story? I have to look that up!
I think the team expects Jack to interfere, guns blazing like in "Countrycide". Wouldn't *that* impress the faeries. *snark* I hope they sort out the trust issue in series two.
Ok, and... off we go for the next commentary! *g*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, a Jack/Estelle story? I have to look that up!

It's here (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/612053.html).

Wouldn't *that* impress the faeries. *snark* I hope they sort out the trust issue in series two.

I think we'll get another look at the 'trust issues' from a different angle. I was intrigued by the moment in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" where Captain John was trying to tell Gwen she couldn't trust Jack and she said she trusted him just fine. Nice moment.

[elebridith]

Awwww, that was a beautiful story! I knew it - Estelle seemed smart to me, why shouldn't she figure it out? And the vegetarian tea date is hilarious!

Yep, that Gwen moment was nice! Especially - well, I'd understand if the team completely looses trust in *that* episode - after all, Jack left without an explanation and just kinda dropped in again. We'll see how it will turn out! Good storyline anyway!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

that was a beautiful story!

Happy smile - thank you.

Especially - well, I'd understand if the team completely looses trust in *that* episode - after all, Jack left without an explanation and just kinda dropped in again.

Yes. And I like the way Gwen confronted him with it. I think at this point the issue is not whether they trust him - they do, really - but whether and to what extent he trusts them.