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fajrdrakoI'm not sure what to say. Except that I think John Barrowman was right when he said Russell T. Davies was on crack. The story was... not what I was expecting.
Fandom's a funny thing. I am left wondering if I was misinterpreting things, or if the resolution of series 3 just didn't match with the rest of the series, or if I was just dropped over a cliff without warning.
The cliff, I think.
Huh.
Okay, put this in neat and rational list form.
1. I thought at first I was watching Battlestar Galactica with its "one year later" scenario: humanity enslaved to robots, humanoid robots, and a madman, our heroes fighting a resistance movement, some of them imprisoned by the enemy. Then I thought maybe I was watching Torchwood's "End of Days" with its rift and its restart button and its "I forgive you" scene. But minus the Roman soldier.
2. Jack, Jack, Jack... is that all? I hoped he would be invited to stay on the TARDIS and expected he would return to Torchwood to do his duty as he sees it. I wanted that, and I got it. But... I wanted more warmth along the way. This so very much wasn't Jack's story. I was almost sorry he was present. Did he made a difference?
I know it isn't a fannish win/lose situation, and of course Jack will see the Doctor again any number of times, but I was left feeling that the Jack/Ianto shippers have won out.
The disappointment was that he was played just like Martha, the person who loves the Doctor and isn't loved in return. I don't believe it, and that sets up a certain pattern of denial: it runs contrary to what I saw in series 1. I also believe the Doctor loves Martha, but refuses to express it. That's okay.
3. Martha is gone? Gad. I loved Martha.
4. Jack as the Face of Boe... I rather like the idea, but I don't like the sense of knowing Jack's future, including what appears to be his final death.1 I don't want to know how and when Jack will ultimately cease to exist any more than I want to know about my own death, or the Doctor's, or any other heroes. I want the future to unfold as an unresolved question.
5. I thought this played to old series fans, not new ones. On the whole.
6. I would have loved the Doctor being the Master's prisoner for all that time if it had been David Tennant, or the Doctor as we know him - but the morphing and make-up squicked me and it was as if the Doctor was missing from most of the episode. I wanted him. I wanted his great dialogue!
7. I thought John Simm was magnificent as the Master but liked him better in "Utopia" and "The Sound of Drums" than in "The Last of the Time Lords". And though I loved the emotional stuff between him and the Doctor, I was distressed that the Doctor felt he was alone without the Master, when Jack and Martha were there and both so loving and loyal to him.
8. Loved Martha being all brave and dramatic in black. Rather liked the implication that she will end up with Tom Milligan too, though I wish she'd had the Doctor's love first.
~ ~ ~
1 But logically, why should it be? Why should Jack's death in "Gridlock" be any more final than any of his other deaths? And his life any less a fixed point? Ah well, who am I to question the Time Vortex.
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Date: 2007-07-01 04:16 pm (UTC)After this, I went back and watched Gridlock and all that, and there are...definetly clues about Jack being Boe. And...honestly, they do have some facial similarities. So I'm happy with that.
I do think Jack did make a difference. I don't think anyone else but Jack could've destroyed the paradox machine.
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Date: 2007-07-01 04:27 pm (UTC)in that the Doctor/Master relationship was the only one that got really satisfying emotional whammy, yes
but... no.
I mean, I didn't feel that version of the Master was quite right at all. Not the being crazy, the particular forms. I wouldn't accept it in fanfic, I'd back button before we got to the end of the episode.
So having *that* Master get that scene with the Doctor was... weird.
Making the Doctor feel alone when he's 'only' with humans is sort of inverting the point of the Doctor, in my never very humble opinion. He's supposed to like people. He never did like Time Lords best anyway, ran away from them. So all this attachment to the idea of them comes from the Time War, a plot twist we never got to see. It looks like guilt, really. It's kind of an interesting story, and kind of not the Doctor. Except it is now.
Martha being brave and dramatic should have been cool, but for me was rather undermined by the thing where she wasn't organising the resistance per se, just going around telling everyone to worship the Doctor. That reduces her to cheerleader in his life. No fun.
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Date: 2007-07-01 04:27 pm (UTC)It was a joke!
*wibbles*
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Date: 2007-07-01 04:58 pm (UTC)Yes, I can see Jack as the Face of Boe on numerous levels. Including the friendship - and the nice thing there is that we see the Doctor's love and respect for the Face of Boe, even from that long remove. But why did Jack keep his identity secret from the Doctor? Or was it himself he was keeping it secret from?
Why do you think only Jack could have destroyed the Paradox Machine? I did like it that Jack did it... heck, I liked all Jack's scenes because I love seeing Jack. The chains - and the breaking of the chains - were a nice touch. So was the scene with Jack and Tish.
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Date: 2007-07-01 05:09 pm (UTC)I wonder if Jack even thought it important to mention. Did Rose or the Doctor ever even mention FOB to Jack?
I got the impression that destroying it was an 'it will kill you to do it' situation, what with the "toclafane" protecting it, and all that. But it is highly possible I'm incorrect.
I enjoyed the scene with Jack and Tish. I'm interested in the fact that apparently whatever problems Francine and Mr Jones had, being stomped on by the Master was what brought them back together. And I'm curious as to how he'll explain that to his girlfriend now that they're back a year later. I am probably the only one though. *G*
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Date: 2007-07-01 05:15 pm (UTC)WEll. Jack destroyed the Paradox machine. I think that did sort of make a difference. And I must admit, Jack in grime and blood, with those fair eyes flashing with life - was a sight I don't want to have missed!!
And I'm not sure that would be his final death, if indeed - as makes sense to me - Jack is the Face of Boe. I'd love it if it weren't!
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Date: 2007-07-01 05:16 pm (UTC)2. Yeah, the lack of Jack was a bit disappointing - but DW isn't his story. His revelations came in Utopia, and generally speaking, he's in DW to back up the Doctor and provide the necessary martial skills. He could have had more to do though, I agree - in story terms I suppose he was the only one who could get past the toclafane to destroy the paradox generator thingy, but the rest of the time he was a bit of a third wheel (though think of all the angsty fic that can be generated from Jack in chains for a year!)
3. I'm pretty sure that Martha will be back. There will apparently be an exciting announcement re her character on Mon from official types, so she isn't done yet.
4. I am currently extremely relieved to know that Jack will cease to exist at some point because my view of his future after seeing Utopia was very, very bleak. To just keep living, and living, and living while everything crumbles around him, and everyone dies and the universe fails *shivers* And it's true that we don't know his death in Gridlock was final, but I find it comforting to know that he isn't cursed to survive for eternity.
5. I'm a new series fan and I thought it rocked.
6. I don't think it is as much about being alone on a personal level as once again going back to being the only Time Lord. He couldn't save his people in the Time War, and he fails to save the Master. For a while there was someone else who remembered Gallifrey, who'd been involved in the Doctor's life for centuries (and even as an enemy that would build a connection) and then bang, he's gone and the Doctor's lost all that all over again.
7. Martha was very cool. :-)
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Date: 2007-07-01 05:20 pm (UTC)The future's not necessarily set in stone. I mean, Harriet Jones was supposed to inaugurate a great human empire, and the Doctor screwed that. There was supposed to be another great human empire and the Jagrafess ruined that. Some historical facts aren't as factual as others.
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Date: 2007-07-01 05:44 pm (UTC)And though I loved the emotional stuff between him and the Doctor, I was distressed that the Doctor felt he was alone without the Master, when Jack and Martha were there and both so loving and loyal to him.
But it's a question of being the same species. To be the last of your own species would be a dreadful thing.
I think Martha will be back. She's just off for the Christmas Special.
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Date: 2007-07-01 06:01 pm (UTC)Do you mean future Jack/Face of Boe? If so I'd say it was both - the Doctor and himself at that time. He certainly knows enough about timelines to realise that telling either of them out of the proper time could be bad. Which would also explain why he didn't mention the Master more specifically, or earlier.
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Date: 2007-07-01 06:22 pm (UTC)Please excuse my using your journal as somewhere to put these thoughts in order. I was going to post in my own but I accidentally posted the
1. I've not seen any BSG but the reset button, I thought, was a necessary plot device. What else were they meant to do? I did like that Martha's family weren't caught up in the reset, so that they get a glimpse into what her life with the Doctor was like. Should make her return (and she's coming back, I'm sure) more interesting.
2. Jack, Jack, Jack. No, it wasn't his story, really. If he were less of a major character elsewhere, or possibly if we had less invested in him ;) it would have mattered less. He would just have been a helpful macguffin to solve the story. I didn't read it in quite the same way. He leaves the Doctor, not the other way round. It was nice to see them back on an even keel, and nice for him to get that moment, to show the Doctor how much he's grown up.
My major problem was actually with the paradox machine bit. I mean, the Doctor initially tells them not to touch it, then Jack just shoots it and all's back to normal? Ho hum. Although I did like the fact that this means technically, Jack saved the world. Not Martha, not the Doctor. Jack.
Plus, Jack in chains. And we know nothing that happened to him in that year, except that it made him kinda dirty (on the outside; we already know about the inside). As a fanfic writer, I can't be too disappointed, plus the screencaps are going to make my head explode. Again.
3. She'll be back. And the Doctor will have to come when she calls. I kinda like that.
4. I really, really didn't have a problem with it, if I can get my head round the biology. In some ways, it felt just right, that Jack should be watching over the Doctor for all that time.
5. Why do you say that?
6. YES! That's what I've been trying to put words around. I think whatever meta I do write is going to start with a quotation from Jurassic Park, directed at the special effects department: You were so busy thinking about whether a thing could be done, you never stopped to think if it should.
7. John Simm really played well off David Tennant. The other stuff I just kind of went with as an 'oh he's nuts' kind of thing, although it would have been nice if he'd been more sinister. I didn't feel that his sense of lonliness somehow cheapened Jack and Martha's relationships with him. There's always a sense, even with Rose, that the Doctor's alone. That he has to be alone, somehow, after what he did. So losing the Master is losing Gallifrey all over again. I had a tear in my eye, I can tell you.
8. Martha was all kinds of awesome. In some ways, the Doctor has trusted her far more than he ever trusted Rose, in some ways. I LOVE how different the two of them are. Rose always felt like a child, and she and the Doctor were big kids together. Martha's a grown up, and the Doctor doesn't feel the need to protect her. He trusts her with his life in Human Nature, then with the world in Last of the Time Lords. I like that.
9. Can I just ask, what did you make of Lucy Saxon? She fascinates me (I tend to get fixated on minor characters) and I'm intrigued to know what others think. Is she just nutso because she saw the end of the universe? Or is it some kind of telepathic/drug control, with a side order of domestic violence, from the Master? She's very interesting...
YUP.MARTHA IS NOT THE DR'S COMPANION IN SEASON 4
Date: 2007-07-01 06:29 pm (UTC)Me too. Her part in this season finale was so...epic. Wandering the earth, the last hope of humankind, a creature of rumour and myth...
But The Mirror has broken the news that in Season 4, Martha WONT be the Doctor's companion, just make some recurring appearances in it, and in Torchwood. WHY? Only ONE season? At least we got Billie Piper for two.
Sigh.
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Date: 2007-07-01 06:33 pm (UTC)I do hope she stays on.
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Date: 2007-07-01 06:35 pm (UTC)http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=--8216-doctor-who-no-quitter--8217-&method=full&objectid=19363400&siteid=50082-name_page.html
But Freema Agyeman, who plays Doctor Jones, has come out fighting, dispelling fans’ fears that she is also on the way out.
“I have categorically not been sacked from Doctor Who,” said the actress who plays the Doctor’s latest companion, Martha Jones.
“There’s no truth (in the rumours) whatsoever and I don’t know where they came from.
“But I’m not permitted to talk about storylines and I can’t talk about the next series.
“I’ve been gagged and if I do talk about it, then I will be sacked!”
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Date: 2007-07-01 06:47 pm (UTC)I think it's all of the above.
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Date: 2007-07-01 07:07 pm (UTC)I have a memory from The Sound of Drums that the Doctor told them not to touch it before because they had no idea what it was doing, what the paradox was and what shutting it off would do. But by the end of the last episode, they know exactly what it's doing. Or something. :-)
Re your point 8, I had a similar thought, but also along the lines that Rose would never have left without the Doctor, no matter whether it was necessary and what he wanted because she was so fixated on them staying together all the time. So she could never have done what Martha did just from that.
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Date: 2007-07-01 07:29 pm (UTC)Hang on, lost my train of thought there ;) Where was I?
Oh yes.
However cool it was that Jack gets to save the world, I couldn't help but be disapointed that it wasn't a bit more...technological.
I hadn't thought about Rose and the Doctor like that, but of course you're right. I loved Rose, thought she did the Doctor the world of good, and I loved that they gave her such a heart-wrenching departure. It was great, she was great, and Billie Piper can act her socks off. But Martha's great too. I loved her "This is me. Getting out." speech, which is what we've been waiting for all season and puts her back as the Doctor's equal rather than a follower. I found I empathised much better with her than with Rose.
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Date: 2007-07-01 07:59 pm (UTC)It took me a long time to post for the same reason. And I'm still not sure what I think as a bottom line. There was a lot I liked - I was enjoying myself as I was watching, even while I was thinking, Whaet the Helle? and gasping in surprise. And then at other times I was laughing or squeeing.
As for posting in the wrong place - heh. I've done that. One of the pitfalls of LJ! And feel free to use my LJ anytime.
1. I liked the reset button - no problem with that either in "End of Days" or here. Battlestar Galactica did not have a reset button, though we did more or less go back to the way things were - with legal, personal, and psychological ramifications. It was really quite wonderful, as written. Russell T. Davies does
stealborrow ideas from elsewhere, and he tends to take the best from the best. I like that, too.2. Now you mention it, yes, Jack saved the world. Rather directly! Nice thought. He doesn't lose his integrity at any point here, either. But he still didn't get any of the emotional weight or credit. He was still more peripheral in focus than I had hoped he would be, for the action - as was the Doctor. It was, I suppose, Martha's moment of glory, rather in the way "The Parting of the Ways" was Rose's moment of glory.
Yes, he left the Doctor; I just wish he'd done it more affectionately, or with more regret, or with more assurance that they would meet again soon. I suppose the thing that puzzled me most here was the resetting of the Vortex Manipulator. That's not an 'even keel' situation - if he'd asked the Doctor to do it, or if it had been broken in the course of the episode, I'd feel less confused by what it meant. Besides being a plot point.
3. I like the idea of The Doctor coming when Martha calls, but in an emotional sense I can't think of it both ways: either she carries on with her life, with her family and Tom Milligan, in which case it will never be the same with the Doctor again, or she doesn't. And it's implied that she will. So a return - it'll be great to see Martha any opportunity we get, but it isn't the resolution I'd really hoped for.
Not that I wanted them to stay together forever.
4. I also like the way we get the sense of Jack keeping a loving eye on the Doctor through all of time. Seeing him in different eras. The biology doesn't bother me. Just the death.
5. Why I think it played to old fans: I'm trying to pin down the thought. There was a lot here that referenced things that until now have not been in the new series - where all we've dealt with was the Doctor's guilt and having destroyed his people and his sense of loneliness, which he deals with by befriending or loving humans. This has been resolved at different times and in different ways - to some extent "The Last of the Time Lords" is simply doing the same thing in a different way at a different time. Part of it is that we never heard of the Master until the end of Utopia, never saw him, never had reference to him. So the only significance of the Doctor is that he is 'the other living Time Lord', and it was a shock to see the weight of the Doctor caring for him (for that reason or any other) so much more than anything or anyone else.
I can see that losing the Master is losing Gallifrey all over again, and yes, I was moved. I liked the death scene. I just wanted... a little more emotion from the Doctor towards Jack and Martha as well.
8. I too love the contrasts between Martha and Rose. I saw the Doctor as trusting both Rose and Martha.
9. Lucy Saxon? I liked her and found her fascinating, and I think that if it's her in the last scene, taking the Master's ring, then we'll learn more about her and her motives and what makes her tick. The best I can 'explain' at the moment is that she was a female human analogue of the Master - perhaps partly under his telepathic control, but also a match for him in personality.
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:02 pm (UTC)Hang on, lost my train of thought there
Uh, you were saying something? Heh.
I'm not convinced that Rose was entirely good for the Doctor but I thought her departure was fantastic. And I'm in total agreement that Martha's getting out speech was exactly what was needed - like you I can empathise much more with Martha anyway and I was dying for her to say something like that.
I don't get this whole idea that people can't like both Rose and Martha. It's very irritating. Currently I prefer Martha, because she hasn't annoyed me as much yet as Rose did in Tooth and Claw and we've had less time to see her flaws anyway, but I still like Rose.
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:05 pm (UTC)Did Rose or the Doctor ever even mention FOB to Jack?
Probably not. The thing is... when they meet up billions of years later - say, in New Earth - why would Jack/Boe not say, "You used to know me as Captain Jack Harkness, way back when?" Maybe because he knew the Doctor was, at that point, horrified by him. And on previous meeting, as in "The End of the World", the Doctor didn't know Jack yet.
'm interested in the fact that apparently whatever problems Francine and Mr Jones had, being stomped on by the Master was what brought them back together.
That was rather nice.
I'm curious as to how he'll explain that to his girlfriend now that they're back a year later. I am probably the only one though.
No, I was wondering about that, too. The show wasn't very sympathetic to her!
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:07 pm (UTC)And of course we don't know what will happen to Jack in future - between now and "Gridlock", and in Torchwood continuity.
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:11 pm (UTC)Out of character, you mean?
Making the Doctor feel alone when he's 'only' with humans is sort of inverting the point of the Doctor, in my never very humble opinion.
I agree with this, from all I've seen. I have always liked the way he likes and loves humans, the way he accepts them and respects them. Values them. Now, I like the 'lonely god' or 'lonely angel' idea because it adds a dark touch to a light character, and keeps his relationships from being simple or casual - but the scene with the Master runs counter to that, too. Yes, it looks like guilt. I loved it when he said in "The Sound of Drums" that he wanted to save the Master. I wish he had.
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-07-01 08:13 pm (UTC)I did like the visuals on Jack. I just wish we'd had more!
Yes, I'd love to think the "Gridlock" death was not the end of Jack/Boe. Definitely!
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Date: 2007-07-01 08:20 pm (UTC)Ah, the pitfalls of television! Seems amazing that there were so many unintended similarities, but so it goes.
they make a couple of comments about fandom in the commentary and what bits will probably piss fandom off, it was quite amusing.
I must listen to that!
I do look forward to Jack fic about this episode, though on the whole I'm more into heroic and romantic fics than angsty ones. (Depending on the writers.)
I am currently extremely relieved to know that Jack will cease to exist at some point because my view of his future after seeing Utopia was very, very bleak. To just keep living, and living, and living while everything crumbles around him, and everyone dies and the universe fails *shivers*
Interesting - ! I had another reaction to that. I saw two possibilities. One is wishing on Jack an unknown death, or fate, or reassumption of mortality at an unknown time and place - which would have been the default situation if the Doctor hadn't said in "Utopia", "You might be around somewhere." The other is the thought, or belief in the possibility, that theoretically universes end and are reborn over and over and over - as in the Hindu model - and that existence is, in fact, open-ended infinity, so the end is not the end.
I'd actually rather not contemplate Jack's eventual end, either way. I don't want to know about his deathbed - or Martha's, or Rose's, or the Doctor's. I'd rather that wasn't part of my story!