World Enough and Time

I just regard it as another icky, but fortunately non-compulsory and avoidable, bodily function. I could have a career in unicorn-wrangling.

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omnivorously.livejournal.com

And we *need* more unicorn-wranglers! And while I am not averse to sex, I think that's a bit sentimental. Act of worship? Mysterious = magical? I dunno, buddy. Objectively, sex is kind of silly looking. Well, a lot of religious practices are, too, so maybe he's got something there, after all ... Besides the first sentence, I'm a slasher, I can't fault him there.

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I'm sure unicorn wrangling would be a very, um, specialized role! But where would you get the training? I think there's a story in there someone... what do you do with the unicorn when you've wrangled it? (Picturing unicorn rodeos, now. With hoop-tossing over the horns.)

Anyway, I figure there's balance in the world: I overvalue sex, you undervalue it, and the human norm is somewhere in between.

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I've heard people often say sex is silly-looking, but I've never thought it so in the least. I guess I've never managed that kind of objectivity - and see no reason to cultivate it - I'd much rather think of it as I do. Magical, definitely, but we each have our own views of magic and what it is.

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him???? Storm is female ;-)

sex can feel transcendental (also, reuniting body and spirit), so maybe that is spiritual. Seeing sex is not sex. (actually, that is one of the things the MacKinnon book I am reading is arguing about, sex claims the words are the act).

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Yes, Storm is female.

sex can feel transcendental (also, reuniting body and spirit), so maybe that is spiritual.

Yes - it is for me. Or put another way: the physical/spiritual divide isn't really a divide: human beings are both physical and spiritual at the same time, and sex reflects this.

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I agree with this. It also makes asexuality an interesting topic.

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I more or less assume that people differ in lots of things, amongst wich 'how important both sexuality and spiritueality' are for the, but also friendship or making things or intellectual stimulation or food. I wouldn't say any of these preferences is inherrently more important.
I get the impression from the above remark that you either of both place sexuality and spirituality in a special place. This might wel be a misreading, but if not, could you tell me why?

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I wouldn't say any of these preferences is inherrently more important.

No, not at all, except in its importance to the individual. And it sometimes is useful to know, when dealing with a person, what their attitudes are to any given subject - especially one of personal importance - otherwise we all tend to assume that we are alike in these things. Which isn't always true.

Seems to me that sexual intensity (for want of a better word) is as much a part of a person's make-up as sexual orientation.

Where it becomes really significant is when the people who want to control the thought or morality of others decree things must be one way or the other - that we must all be chaste, or straight, or whatever, regardless of our personal inclinations. They can usually find ways to justify this. Scary.

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Though I have my doubts about the Kinsey scale - I think it tends to be misleading - it can for some be a useful shorthand measure of orientation, and maybe we should have a similar scale for degress of importance a person put on the physical and the spiritual as dualities. As usual, I would be smack in the middle of both scales, balancing both sides - or encompassing the whole scale, perhaps. See how quickly the metaphor breaks down for me? I find it hard to see a duality here - sex is spiritual and emotional and intellectual and sensory, all together. In fact, I think any of these aspects of the personality includes and encompasses all the others. We are holograms, not pixels.

Oh dear. The more I say, the more odd my metaphors get.

I mean we are the sum of our parts*, not bits and pieces.

*no pun intended

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Actually, they are excellent park-creatures. They keep the grass trimmed, and can pick up litter.

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It's not a spectator-sport, that's for sure, and I think the person being quoted is merely a voyeuse.

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Seeing sex is not sex

Exactly. I think what's weird about the original quote is she's talking about voyeurism, about getting off on an act that she is not involved in.

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If so, then me too! Beauty is where you find it.

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Lifelong A.

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Yes, and they are lovely to look at. Do they scare off the pigeons?

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Voyeurism is usually defined as watching people have sex, in the, uh, flesh, as it were. The quote is about an *idea*, not even defined in visual terms. Conceptual rather than actual. Perhaps it's the word 'beautiful' that makes you think thd quote is referring to something voyeuristic and visual?

I suspect that the communication gap between those of us who think sex is 'beautiful' and those who think it's 'icky' is an unbridgeable gulf, because the perception is at a rather deep psychological/physical level. It's hard to make words go there sucessfully.

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And it sometimes is useful to know, when dealing with a person,

yes, when deciding you want to have sex with someone, or write a novel togehter it is good to know how much you are both into it.
Like I've always said "the only time I need to know if someone is straight/bi or gay is when I want to sleep with him". At other times it might be nice to know because it helps getting a more complete picture of someone (like knowing what he likes musicwise and how his childhood was, to name 2 random things).

Where it becomes really significant is when the people who want to control the thought or morality of others decree things must be one way or the other

well, as far as I can see from overhere, in America (and in the Netherlands to a slightly lesser extent) there are forces dictating both ways. Dictating those who are patently too young for *adult* sexual life (pre-pubescent kids) and those who just bt their very own nature don't feel very sexual at all that one needs to be sexy. I cannot escape the impression that this is often for commercial reasons.
On the other hand there is an anti sexuality meme. No sex, no sex education no thinking about sex etc. This is the religious side of the story (excuse me for the simplistic way I lumped all the regious people together, it is more the other way around, all the "chastity people" are from one or other relious camp (as far as I can see.
If these two voices get even louder it will become more and more difficult to find and tell your own story about your own sexual needs and wants, whether they are verocious or just a gentle trickling.

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Lifelong bi, at least since adolescence. I don't know Storm Constantine's orientation.

There ought to be a word that describes fans of the homoerotic (which is really what Constantine is describing) but I don't think I know of one.

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I cannot escape the impression that this is often for commercial reasons.

Sure. Sex is used to sell things, because it's effective with a lot of people, especially the people who are preceived as having the money, i.e., adult men. I personally think this is good (to balance all the erotophobic aspects of society) and I tend to find it appealing, but it seems somewhat intrusive on all the people who don't.

Yes, generally speaking, the chastity brigade does seem to be motivated by religious belief. I wonder if its that the people who find sex distasteful gravitate to the religious that bolster their views, or if its that the teachings of the religion change their sexual perceptions.

If these two voices get even louder it will become more and more difficult to find and tell your own story about your own sexual needs and wants, whether they are verocious or just a gentle trickling.

I feel thankful that we are in a world that gives us choice in the matter, even if it seems like a bewildering confusion of choices. I'd hate to live in a world that forced me to live asexually and keep my sexual thoughts and opinions to myself - in contrast to, say, writing them into stories that other people can read.

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It's still a kind of voyeurism, though: she's not imagining herself having sex.

I suspect that the communication gap between those of us who think sex is 'beautiful' and those who think it's 'icky' is an unbridgeable gulf, because the perception is at a rather deep psychological/physical level. It's hard to make words go there sucessfully.

Yup. I think it's a ridiculous way for a species to reproduce. Undignified and clumsy. I just find the idea of doing anything that looks silly and involves squelchiness... silly. As said, when I was a child, I never made mud-pies (why do something that makes a mess?), and I was appalled at primary school when we were expected to do finger-painting: I knew how to use a brush, and I thought it gross and messy to put paint on your hands.

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As much as any trotting quadruped will. When they're just grazing, other creatures can get quite close.

I love the delicate, mediæval, goat-like unicorns, not the sentimentalised ponies-with-horns one sees in a lot of modern artwork.
They trot daintily on little cloven hooves.

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for me, the importance sex has differs wildly. (very very wildly). When manic my body and soul are drenched in sexual longing, no, need. Every act, every thought got the form of a sexual one, even if they would normally not be. But it would also be the time I am most inclined towards spirituality, seeing evryone connects by golden thread like mushrooms under the ground.

(this sounds nicer than it is, I was also afraid I would do thing I did not realy want but that I lost sight of that, most notably, that someone would over to hang from the branch of a tree and that they would fuck me with electric saws. I knew I didn't want it, but I thought someone would come and suggest and that I couldn't refuse. On the other side of the spectrum, I was also very afraid that I would become the molester and would rape a random man on te street. No matter how spiritual it might well be, sex can be nasty and a deed of aggression.)

On the other hand, I've gone years without sexual feeling (depression, pain), currently my sexual intensity is very, very low and I would dearly like it to wake up a little bit.

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I personally think this is good (to balance all the erotophobic aspects of society) and I tend to find it appealing, but it seems somewhat intrusive on all the people who don't.

I was thinking of the way esp young girls are sexualised. (by aiming make up, types of clothing and sexual dances and poses in TV programms at very young girls). I don't find that amusing at all. I also don't find the idea that that is actually aimed at grown man amusing.
I don't consider myself erotophobic. Nor am I against open and explicit sexual education, not only explaining the technicallities of preventing pregnancy and sexual diseases but also the link with emotion and different sexual orrientations people can have. Preferably more times during the school carreer and starting with basics at a young age. (I believe that knowledge makes strong, and I've met girls who had been molested by a booy in their class (7 years old) the more you are aware and the more of the vocabulary you have the better you are prepared and can respond. I hope)

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there is propably a Japanese word for we can snag. After all, the manga and anime called bishonen (pretty boys - with possibly some boy on boy action) are in Japan aimed at girls (and in the US mostly read, watched by gays). They are generally also written by women, the is a specific name for women who write these but I can't think of it. Anyone, my strong expression is that in Japanese they have specific names for about everything (concerned with mangaor with sex or both).

as an aside, in a survey about wich country people (beteen 40 and 65) enjoyed their sexlife the most, Japan came last.

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When manic... Every act, every thought got the form of a sexual one, even if they would normally not be. But it would also be the time I am most inclined towards spirituality, seeing evryone connects by golden thread like mushrooms under the ground.

Yes. I think this is fairly typical - at least, I have similar feelings. Though I am not bipolar, generally speaking, the better I feel, and the more energetic I feel, the more sexual and spiritual I feel - as if I am able to reach out to the world on different levels in a an enhanced way.

Sex can indeed be aggressive and nasty; that's why it's sometimes a social problem. But that's because sex doesn't exist without connection to the rest of our psyche. Sex encompases all facets of the personality - it's very complex. I don't think we should be afraid of it for that reason. What we fear is the deark side of ourselves.

Even when I was severely depressed and ill, my level of sexual intensity was still high. I'm not sure why but I saw that as a good thing - it gave me a sense of hope.

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I believe that knowledge makes strong

I agree. I can remember times in my childhood when a little more information might have prevented problems, and made me less confused. As an adult - well, it seems to me that in all other aspects of life we value depth of knowledge, so I don't see why sex should be in a different category.

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It's still a kind of voyeurism, though: she's not imagining herself having sex.

Well, sure. Why should sexual fantasy, or even sexual concepts, be focussed on the self?

I think it's a ridiculous way for a species to reproduce. Undignified and clumsy.

Where I see, beauty, grace, romanticism and spirituality. Not to mention transcendence. See, it's all in the point of view!

I thought it gross and messy to put paint on your hands.

You are delightfully consistent.

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I love the delicate, mediæval, goat-like unicorns

They are wonderful. I have a needlepoint tapestry of part of La Dame au Licorne on my living-room wall - not made by me, but by my very talented friend Lisa. We went to the Musee de Cluny together once, years ago.

(I hope I'm getting the title right. I don't mean the tapestry that's at the Cloisters in New York.)

The "My Little Pony" version of the unicorn can be a but much, but that's just being twee rather than artistic. I like the version on the Scotland coat of arms - and the coat of arms of Canada, come to think of it.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/arm2_e.cfm

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there is propably a Japanese word for we can snag

Yes - they seem to have a delightful range of words, though I don't know of one that fits the bill here.

the manga and anime called bishonen (pretty boys - with possibly some boy on boy action) are in Japan aimed at girls (and in the US mostly read, watched by gays).

In Canada, in my experience, the yaoi has mostly a female readership (or viewing audience). Just as in Japan. I have friends who are happily into it. Me too, a bit.

as an aside, in a survey about wich country people (beteen 40 and 65) enjoyed their sexlife the most, Japan came last.

How odd! Do you know who came first in the list? One wonders how honest the answers were - and whether Japan's standing reflected some cultural oddity, like maybe they thought it was the most polite answer.

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Good for you. I think I verge on bi, though am probably more straight thus far.

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Lol @ the pun.

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I place spirituality in a special place, less so sexuality. I'm interested in sexuality but it's not particularly special to me.

I also assume that all of this differs from person to person.

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Heh.

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I also assume that all of this differs from person to person.

Yes, I think it's easy to prove that - just discuss it a group with more than one person.

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I would say I'm emotionally bi, with strong leaning towards lesbian (I was a founding member of a gay and lesbian group at university), but for me it's more about 'romantic friendship'. I'm just plain not into the physical side of life; I quite enjoy dance, but loathe sport of all kinds. I live very much from the neck up.

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Indeed, it's our true national animal.

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Yes, emotionally bi is the proper way to put it. I have only been attracted to one woman in my life and never followed through with it physically (though might have, given the chance... I'll never know).

Maybe as I age, I'll figure it out more.

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I'm 41 today, and I think I can say that's one area of my life in which I feel fully at ease.

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Happy birthday? :)

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wanderinunicorn.livejournal.com

Regarding the Kinsey scala (I've read his both works, and I've seen the movie as well) - he wrote that about 50% all males have homoerotic experiences, could it be truth? As far as I know there are people who say it's rubbish and other who say it's very plausible. Kinsey was bisexual - maybe it was only his wish thinking.
I'm straight but with strong interest for bisexuality as phenomenon, which I think makes our boring world more interesting.

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I've seen the movie as well

I loved that movie.

he wrote that about 50% all males have homoerotic experiences, could it be truth?

Seems too high to me, but who knows? I'd like it to be true! My observation is that those who do it think everyone is doing it and those who don't, think no one is. And nobody really knows the truth.

Kinsey was bisexual - maybe it was only his wish thinking.

Well, he was trying to be statistical and objective - but how could one control the responses of those studied? Some might be fantasizing, others bragging about conquests, others reluctant to admit to sin.

I'm straight but with strong interest for bisexuality as phenomenon, which I think makes our boring world more interesting.

Amen to that! Yes, I'm interested to in the history and psychology of bisexuality, not just because I'm bi, but because it seems to be a huge, fascinating and often-ignored category of people.

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