Doctor Who "Doomsday" Question...

[fajrdrako]

Out of curiosity, a


...spoiler question, an opinion/interpretation question:

When Rose said "I love you," to the Doctor, what did he reply?

Was it "Quite right to" or "Quite right, too"?

I tend to the second reading, but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Comments

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

The second. The first isn't something anyone would say, grammatically.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, that's what I thought... so it surprised me when fans were raising the question.

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm with you on "quite right, too".

And what do you think he was going to say to Rose before he was cut off? Because I've seen differing opinions, and I know what I think it was!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's a very good question. I don't have a good answer for it. I don't think he was going to say he loved it. I think it might have something like Captain Jack's "you were worth it" or (more likely) "weren't the adventures grand?"

What do you think it was?

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

I don't think he was going to say he loved it.

"It"? That's not indicative of the way you feel about Rose, is it? *g*

Most of the time, yes, I do think he was going to say that he loved her. Because it's obvious, he does. I'm not saying that she's his One True Love Ever, but think about it, he's the same person as Nine, and Nine died to save Rose's life. I feel Nine's feelings for her were clearer somehow - I think it's something that RTD and the other writers have fudged somewhat this series: it's been made clear that Rose adores the Doctor but what he feels for her has been left very hazy. Annoyingly so after the events with Nine in PotW. *sigh* Am I expecting too much in terms of emotional continuity from what is, after all, a children's show?

Back to what Ten was going to say before he got cut off - whatever it was, that scene ties in nicely with the bit in The Satan Pit, before he lets go and drops into the pit, where he asks Ida to give Rose a message, to "just tell her..." and he falters, twice, on what it is he wants to say and then just says "oh, she'll know". My question is, what's the problem if it's something innocuous? It's something he's finding very hard to actually say. Which is why I think the dreaded L-word is lurking unspoken in both scenes...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Woo, that message came out very weird! It should teach me not to be so verbose...

Which is why I think the dreaded L-word is lurking unspoken in both scenes...

Well, of course - whether it is really what he was going to say or not, it was in the minds of every viewer, except for some seven-year-olds in denial. Which is why it was a tease - not the Doctor teasing Rose, because whatever he was going to say was meaningful and sincere, whether it was "I love you" or "I'll miss you" or whatever variation on the theme. No, it was RTD & Co. teasing the viewers because he knew what we wanted the Doctor to say and he was both giving it to us and withholding it.

So why do I think he wasn't going to say he loved her? Largely because if the writers had wanted it said, they would have had him say it. Or put another way: the Doctor usually doesn't say what one expects him to say, even if the meaning of the unspoken statement comes across anyway.

Rewriting what I just wrote, to ungarble it...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's not indicative of the way you feel about Rose, is it? *g*

Sigh - no, I just can't type. Or think, on a Friday afternoon. I meant to say: "I don't think he was going to say he loved her."

It's obvious, he does. I agree that it's obvious that he does, which is partly why I don't think he was going to say that - it was hard enough for him as it was, and he doesn't often state the obvious.

Let me add that I'm not committed to my answer. I can easily imagine that he was about to say "Rose Tyler, I love you," and didn't get a chance. I like that answer.

In a way I don't think it really matters, because either way he loves her, and she knows he loves her. Nine died to save Rose's life.Oh, I have no doubt that the Doctor loved her very much. I just think he was going to say something different there, something more lateral than direct.

Part 3 of my answer...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think it's something that RTD and the other writers have fudged somewhat this series: it's been made clear that Rose adores the Doctor but what he feels for her has been left very hazy.

Just a little ambiguous, yes. To keep us guessing? Probably not; if you're paying any attention at all, it's clear he loved her. I think he said it clearly in his own way in "The Satan Pit" when he said he believed in her.

Annoyingly so after the events with Nine in PotW. *sigh*

As I see it: the Doctor was very fond of Rose right from the beginning of "Rose", which is why he wanted her to come with him, and asked twice. By the end of the season, he loved her very much indeed - but then made the transformation to Ten, and that interrupted the emotional process: he had to get used to who he was again, and she had to get used to seeing him in a new body. But she discovered it was him, and she loved him as much as ever, and he made a real emotional commitment to her. Probably not deliberately - that is, he hadn't intended it, but it happened, and he saw it as a good thing, and went with it - instead of just leaving her, as he would have anyone else.

Part 4 of my answer..

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Am I expecting too much in terms of emotional continuity from what is, after all, a children's show?

I think the blip of emotional discontinuity made sense. In season 1 they were coming to love each other. In season 2 they did love each other. There was a period of readjustment, but I think by... say... "The Rise of the Cybermen" they're back on the emotional footing they would have been if "The Parting of the Ways" hadn't been quite so traumatic.

I think if it were not a children's show, he would probably have said "Rose Tyler, I love you." And they would have kissed at some point, probably in the later episodes. But it is, and they didn't.

before he lets go and drops into the pit, where he asks Ida to give Rose a message, to "just tell her..." and he falters, twice, on what it is he wants to say and then just says "oh, she'll know".

I liked that, too.

My question is, what's the problem if it's something innocuous?

I don't think there is a problem. Or, rather, the problem isn't emotional, it's situational. The Doctor loves Rose and Rose loves the Doctor and they're both aware of the mutual feelings. If anything, it's that the Doctor knows that words are not adequate. So he isn't going send a second-hand love message via Ida when Rose knows already he loves her - that's where the faith comes in - if Ida tells Rose 'he said you knew what he was going to say', Rose will know.

[tigertrapped.livejournal.com]

Well I was watching with the subtitles on and it was the second. But subtitlers are not infallible. They once interpreted a question between two men in Spooks as one calling the other Juliet ("do you let" was the bit that threw them).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Subtitling must be a strange job - goodness knows I've seen subtitles that garbled the sense; and others that caught things I didn't.

Thanks for the confirmation, though! Nice to know that the subtitler agrees with me.

Re: Rewriting what I just wrote, to ungarble it...

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

it was hard enough for him as it was, and he doesn't often state the obvious.

Oh, I agree that it's terribly hard for him. Look at what he says in School Reunion, where it's implied he never went back for Sarah Jane because he couldn't bear the fact that that she'd age and decay. He's talking to Rose about humans withering and dying, and then he says "Imagine watching that happen to someone who you-" and cuts himself off. I'm really getting behind the idea of the Doctor refusing to admit (to himself or to anyone else!)that he loves anyone because they'll die and he won't...

I can easily imagine that he was about to say "Rose Tyler, I love you," and didn't get a chance. I like that answer.

Just rewatched Doomsday, and I really think he was. After she says "I love you", he smiles and says "quite right, too" and then he looks sooo sad. And what he says next really clinches it for me: "And I suppose, it's my last chance to say it..." He's close to tears and the look on his face kills me. And then "Rose Tyler-" and aaargh! He gets cut off just as he's about to say it. RTD and co. are definitely playing with us.

Re: Rewriting what I just wrote, to ungarble it...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, but in the nicest way - I loved that whole scene. I've watched it a bunch of times and will probably watch it more. It had just the right touch.

Re: Part 3 of my answer...

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

The more I think about it, the more I think the second series was all about love and loss and loneliness. I had thought the episodes were all over the place thematically, but actually, they're not. Hurrah!

So why do I think he wasn't going to say he loved her? Largely because if the writers had wanted it said, they would have had him say it.

But it's not that straightforward! I think it's perfectly in character for the Doctor to have trouble saying it - in fact it's the third time he's had the opportunity, and I really think that this time, knowing he would never see Rose again (oh, sob!), he was really going to say it. Completely screwed up, emotionally, isn't he?

There's also the fact that scores of the old-school fans would have dropped dead if the Doctor had actually said the dreaded L-word to Rose, because he's never said it to any of his other companions. Hee!

Re: Part 3 of my answer...

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Just a little ambiguous, yes.

I've just convinced myself that it's actually less ambiguous than I thought. *g*

I think he said it clearly in his own way in "The Satan Pit" when he said he believed in her.

Good point.

Nine's growing love for Rose is one of the reasons I love the first series so very very much.

he made a real emotional commitment to her. Probably not deliberately - that is, he hadn't intended it

Well yes, there's the idea that Nine needed Rose, more than any previous Doctor has needed his Companion/s, because of the aftermath of the Time War. In contradiction of the unspoken rule from previous series that the Doctor doesn't get romantically involved with his Companion/s - but trust RTD to (gleefully) rock the boat!

but it happened, and he saw it as a good thing, and went with it - instead of just leaving her, as he would have anyone else.

Yes, in School Reunion when Rose says "You just leave us behind. That what you're going to do to me?", he actually says, "No. Not to you."

But then in The Girl in the Fireplace, he leaves her stranded on the spaceship with the clockwork droids, thousands of years in the future and with no way of getting home. I love that episode, I really do - but I can't reconcile his behaviour with what he's said about not leaving her. You don't do that to someone you love. I mean, okay, Reinette was about to be beheaded by the droids and he had to save her, but still - he just abandoned Rose. Gah! I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner with that one. *sigh*

Re: Part 4 of my answer..

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

I think the blip of emotional discontinuity made sense.

Leaving her in TGitF - I think that's what I have a problem with. Especially coming as it does right after School Reunion.

I think if it were not a children's show, he would probably have said "Rose Tyler, I love you." And they would have kissed at some point, probably in the later episodes.

I'm quite happy to attribute the lack of any expressions of love to the Doctor's being emotionally repressed becuase of losing everyone he's ever loved - countless Companions and all the Timelords, all of his people. Hah, we're back to talking about loss. And love. And loneliness. I love it!

So he isn't going send a second-hand love message via Ida when Rose knows already he loves her - that's where the faith comes in - if Ida tells Rose 'he said you knew what he was going to say', Rose will know.

Yes, good point about the second hand message. But I still think the barrier is emotional as well. There's something about the way DT plays the scene that says to me that he's never told her. And yes, she knows, but knowing and being told are not quite the same, are they?

I think Ten tends to use words to blind and dazzle people, to distract them. A Lymond-like defense. There are other ways he's like Lymond, too. The loneliness, and the emotional repression. Oh help. It's almost one o'clock and I really must go to bed - but this is such fun!

Re: Part 3 of my answer...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The more I think about it, the more I think the second series was all about love and loss and loneliness.

I think both series have been about that. I think series 1 was about Rose becoming a hero. Series 2 was focussed on the love between Rose and the Doctor. Yes, thematic progression, I think, right to the end where their heroism (or fate) parts them.

Completely screwed up, emotionally, isn't he?

Conflicted, perhaps. The fact is he hasn't just had three opportunities to say he loves her, he could have said it an infinite number of times. I'd like to imagine he has done so; be we don't see it, so it's just speculation. That makes this different in "Doomsday" is that it's the last time he could have said it. Or he thinks it is... if he sees Rose again in "The Runaway Bride", well, we'll see.

There's also the fact that scores of the old-school fans would have dropped dead if the Doctor had actually said the dreaded L-word to Rose

Hee - do them good!

There's also the fact that scores of the old-school fans would have dropped dead if the Doctor had actually said the dreaded L-word to Rose

Did he love them? I don't know enough about the earlier series to know. "School Reunion" implied that he might have loved Sarah Jane, but left her before it came to that, because he was afraid of losing her. So is the question "why was Rose special"? Or is it "why did he overcome his fears of losing Rose enough to feel emotionally committed to her"? I don't think there's any doubt that he did - he wanted her to be with him "forever", even knowing that her forever is not his forever.

Re: Part 3 of my answer...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've just convinced myself that it's actually less ambiguous than I thought. *g*

I don't actually see a lot of ambiguity. His love is made clear over and over. (As is hers.) They are clearly so happy together. Maybe that's what I don't feel any need to hear him say "I love you" to her, or for that to have been what he might have said to her in that last microsecond.

Nine's growing love for Rose is one of the reasons I love the first series so very very much.

I see a progression right through the series. Over and over things happen to the Doctor that are - or appear to be - new to him, all happening because of Rose. Like being slapped by her mother, forst time it happened in 900 years - and taking it. Or like discovering that he trusts her. Or like in "Dalek", where there's a role reversal and she is telling him the right thing to do. Personally I think that's the real turning point - when he thought he let her die and then couldn't do it a second time; I think that's where he realized how very much he loved her. I could be persuaded of another 'point of no return' if you have one in mind.

there's the idea that Nine needed Rose, more than any previous Doctor has needed his Companion/s, because of the aftermath of the Time War.

You mean because, after teh Time War, he had no one? I think that's part of it - that's part of what messed up his head and put him in an unprecedented situation - but I don't think that's all of it. I like to think he would have loved Rose anyway.

he actually says, "No. Not to you."

Uh-huh. spelling it out. Proving Rose is different. Proving he has changed.

[re "Girl in the Fireplace"]
I love that episode, I really do - but I can't reconcile his behaviour with what he's said about not leaving her.

I'm still working on that one. I'd like to believe there's a way of reconciling what happened there with all the other evidence - that he was working through a contingency plan - but I haven't entirely rationalized it. Just as I haven't entirely rationalized the reasons they left Captain Jack behind in "The Parting of the Ways". Especially when, at other times and in other episodes, there's such a fuss made about not leaving people behind... (Yeah, I was just watching "The Satan Pit" again today.) There must be some way that he didn't abandon Rose (or Jack), but... I don't see it yet.

Re: Part 4 of my answer..

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

e're back to talking about loss. And love. And loneliness. I love it!

Well, it's a major theme. He's the Lonely Angel, the last of the Time Lords, etc. We aren't allowed to forget that.

here's something about the way DT plays the scene that says to me that he's never told her.

I'll just have to watch again, and think about it. As it stands, I can see it as being either way. Maybe yes, maybe no.

And yes, she knows, but knowing and being told are not quite the same, are they?

That depends on a lot of things. The parts we don't see.

I think Ten tends to use words to blind and dazzle people, to distract them.

Yes. Undoubtedly - we see him doing it. And falling back on teasing when the going gets tough.

A Lymond-like defense.

I love it when you compare the Doctor to Lymond. And it's tempting to see similar dynamics - reactions to guilt and loss, ther relationship having some echoes of Lymond's with Philippa - yelling at him at the appropriate moments, and the way he will argue and fight her and try to control her - and then give in entirely and help her do what she wants. (cf. "Rise of the Cyberman", but you can probably think of as many examples as I can.)

This is fun. We don't often get a chance for this kind of back-and-forth.