Troy

[fajrdrako]

Among many other things I did on the weekend, I went to see Troy. Bottom line: I found it colourful but supremely unintelligent. Not as much fun as Hidalgo, which may not have had better history but at least didn't take itself seriously. I had half-hoped that it would be like Pirates of the Caribbean, and be far better than I'd expected from the publicity. Sadly, the only surprise was that the producers and actors spent all that time and effort on a movie so lacklustre.

My various and assorted reactions:

1. Orlando Bloom as Paris was a pretty nitwit and a wimp. Most disappointing. He seemed particularly bad in contrast to all the other brave macho manly men.



2. I chuckled at the review that said Helen's face wouldn't even have launched a dinghy. She looked okay, I thought, in a vacuous way, and her deadpan delivery of lines didn't help much. The woman I liked - and liked very much indeed - was Saffron Burrows as Andromache. I liked her enough to perk up and become interested every time she appeared. She was gorgeous. Briseis was okay - I didn't like her much but she wasn't objectionable, and her part in the plot was reasonably interesting.



3. I only ever saw Brad Pitt once before, as the horrible villain in Kalifornia. I thought his acting there was superb. I thought his acting was superb here, too. I still don't like his looks, though he made the most of his better qualities, e.g., thighs. His free-thinking, tough, honest Achilles was wonderful and had more personality than I ever imagined or expected. His rivalry and squabbling with Agamemnon was far more interesting than anything else that was going on in the whole movie. Overshadowed his rivalry with Hector, actually.




4. Erik Bana as Hector was gorgeous and interesting. Yes, I like the heroic types - and he had a big nose. I liked the way he was protective of Paris; true to his family loyalties even against his better judgement.



5. I loved Peter O'Toole as Priam and Sean Bean as Odysseus. I would have liked to have seen more of both of them.



6. The script was awful. It ranged from meaningless Hollywood cliché to overblown pompousness and back again. I never expected insight into Homer but I didn't expect such a mangling of history and literature all in one blow. It shocked me that the whole Trojan war here was fought in less than a month.



7. The sets looked half-Assyrian, half-Egyptian. Not very Greek at all. The costumes were pure Biblical epic - I kept expecting to see David and Goliath. The accents were... varied. All in all, I saw nothing particularly Greek in any of these people. Not in style or culture. When we first see the Spartans, they are carousing and feasting; Spartan women are wearing colourful sexy outfits and dancing in bangles among the men at the feast. Everyone is drinking and eating lavishly. Harry whispered to me, "This is Sparta?"



8. It seems a little coy (or dishonest) in this day and age to pretend Achilles and Patroclos were not lovers, and the movie dealt with that by not mentioning it. This didn't bother me, though normally I would find it very annoying. Though the script was free of homoerotic elements I thought the actors and their acting made it clear enough that Patroclos was jealous of Briseis and went into battle to get Achilles' attention back. Not just in the matter of sex, but in various other aspects I thought the script and action did a lot of whitewashing of the subject matter.



9. Somebody told me that the Trojan Horse is not in the Iliad. If not, where does it come from?



10. It was fun to see Julie Christie (of all people) as Thetis, in a watery sort of scene. I was confused about Achilles' lineage; I thought from a reference in the beginning that we were supposed to think he was the sun of the god (Poseidon? I'm forgetting the original story), but they talk so much about his father being a Greek king that I decided he was mortal after all. And how, in Homer, did Achilles actually die?



11. For the first third of the movie I was looking for Cassandra and Hecuba and wondering where they were. After a while I stopped looking for them.



12. I wasn't sure what point the movie wanted to make. I couldn't pick out a central theme. The plot wandered. Was it about Achilles' search for glory and posthumous fame? Troy's noble fall and the triumph of barbarism? Paris discovering maturity?



13. Given that they butchered Homer - I haven't read Homer, but it didn't jive with the secondary sources I've read - I wondered at the inclusion of Aeneas. That looked tacked on and irrelevant, and I wondered what proportions of the audiences would even know who Aeneas was. (Unless he was a character in "Xena". Was he?)



14. I didn't like the CGI work at all. It looked phoney to me. The scale was all wrong.



15. I kept wondering where all the slaves were.



16. For all my snarky comments about the unGreeklike sets and costumes, I loved the Greek ships.



17. Lots of nice manly thighs made up for most of the defects, but not the dull and uneven script. I thought "Gladiator" had a dumb script too, but the focus on Maximus (and Russell Crowe's performance) compensated. "Troy" was too diffuse, so it really didn't fit together, though in some of Achilles' scenes it came close.

Comments

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

though he made the most of his better qualities, e.g., thighs.

Hah. Did you see how he purposely (and slowly) uncovers his buttocks, a lot? I laughed my ass off (pun intended) every time he did that.

The script had too many pep talks. It seemed every two minutes characters were reassuring each other about something or other. It was irritating.

Somebody told me that the Trojan Horse is not in the Iliad. If not, where does it come from?

The Aeneid, I believe. The Illiad ends with Hector's death and his funeral, NOT with Achilles' death. The Aeneid also covers Paris and Priam's death, though the movie did not touch Paris' death at all.

It was fun to see Julie Christie (of all people) as Thetis, in a watery sort of scene.

Holy shit, was that her?

I was confused about Achilles' lineage; ... in Homer, did Achilles actually die?

Achilles is like Hercules, half of each. Peleus (man) and Thetis (sea goddess). Thetis wanted her son to be completely immortal so she dipped him into a pool of water (or something like that) which makes you immortal, but she held him by the ankle, hence only his heel was not submurged. Therefore, his heel was his only mortal part. In Homer, Achilles does die. Paris shoots him once, in the heel, and he dies. The armies then proceed to have a battle over who gets his corpse and they give him a huge funeral.

I missed the Judgment of Paris. That was always my favorite part. But they completely eliminated the gods so I knew I wouldn't get it. No Apollo swooping down to save Paris from Menelaous. Instead, they have Hector save Paris.

For the first third of the movie I was looking for Cassandra and Hecuba and wondering where they were. After a while I stopped looking for them.

Yeah, they changed a lot, mostly because it involved the gods/goddesses. The mentions of Zeus and Apollo and of course Thetis' appearance are the only exceptions. Cassandra's punishment, to be the 'unbelieved forseer', was directly related to the gods (Apollo) and they would've had to explain that whole back story to explain her gift and why she just sort of pops up at the end there, when the horse appears. They gave the job to Paris instead, who just sort of has an instinct to say 'burn the damn thing.' Whatever. I think they were trying to give him some redeeming qualities.

Orlando Bloom as Paris was a pretty nitwit and a wimp.

Paris is a nitwit. Wimp, sorta. He is hugely naive, being the ultimate young man in love. He looks even worse when you show the Judgment of Paris, where he gets caught up in godly matters, always (always!) in the name of love. I didn't expect him to look brave, especially next to Achilles (ultimate warrior) and Hector (a close second in the ultimate warrior category).

I didn't like the CGI work at all.

The CGI looked great to me, after seeing Van Helsing. Frankly, after seeing Van Helsing, Troy seemed great.

I thought the Greeks looked Persian. That was just me. It was never clear what ethnicity the Trojans were, but then, who cares? They're characters in a Greek drama, so they all end up looking Greek somehow. I had to remind people that Troy was not in Greece, but what would be Turkey (right?).

I agree on the Patroclus issue. He's described as being Achilles' 'best friend and companion' in the myth, never explicitly as a lover, but companion in Greek terms would insinuate that, I'm sure. Either way, it was a highly loving relationship. Achilles' men fear that Achilles will kill himself following P's death, he is so distraught.

Lots of nice manly thighs made up for most of the defects,

That's what I thought. The focus of the movie is on Achilles. Everyone else just sort of plays along.

I personally liked the movie. There were things I didn't care for but other things made up for it. I knew it wouldn't remain true to the myth. You can't really do that and eliminate the gods from the picture. They are a primary part of the equation of why the myths work. Once you get rid of them, you're going to have to massacre other things to make it all work.

It could've been better written. That was my biggest gripe. Brad Pitt made up for a lot of it. I liked him as Achilles.

[elle-hudson.livejournal.com]

I still don't like his looks, though he made the most of his better qualities, e.g., thighs.

His thighs are *very* nice. *g*

[kathyh]

I thought his acting was superb here, too. I still don't like his looks, though he made the most of his better qualities, e.g., thighs.

I think he was better than I thought at first when I wrote about it. It's his performance that I'm actually remembering best. I don't like his looks either, his jaw looks odd to me, but I have to say the body on offer was fairly tasty.

All in all, I saw nothing particularly Greek in any of these people. Not in style or culture. When we first see the Spartans, they are carousing and feasting; Spartan women are wearing colourful sexy outfits and dancing in bangles among the men at the feast. Everyone is drinking and eating lavishly. Harry whispered to me, "This is Sparta?"

I think they were going for the Mycenean/Minoan look rather than classical Greek. I don't think they were particularly accurate but at least one of the cups looked like a copy of one from a museum. There is an awful lot of feasting in Homer too.

I was confused about Achilles' lineage; I thought from a reference in the beginning that we were supposed to think he was the sun of the god (Poseidon? I'm forgetting the original story), but they talk so much about his father being a Greek king that I decided he was mortal after all.

He was. His mother Thetis was a sea goddess (hence the rather nice paddling scene *g*) but his father was mortal.

And how, in Homer, did Achilles actually die?

If I remember correctly the Iliad ends with the funeral games of Patroclus and Priam begging Achilles for Hector's body (the one scene in the film I thought was really strong). Achilles dies later, shot through the heel by Paris as in the film, but far earlier. I seem to remember Paris shot him from the walls of Troy cementing his reputation for cowardice by not going any closer, but I could be wrong on that one.

I wasn't sure what point the movie wanted to make. I couldn't pick out a central theme. The plot wandered. Was it about Achilles' search for glory and posthumous fame? Troy's noble fall and the triumph of barbarism? Paris discovering maturity?

I wasn't sure either. I wondered if they may have been trying to look at different attitudes to war: Achilles fighting for glory, Hector fighting to defend his country, Agamemnon fighting for power. If that was their theme I thought LOTR did it much better.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Aeneas was indeed part of the story. ...Although right now what I was going to say about him has gone right out of my head! Gad, how embarrassing.

He probably was on Xena, too, at least once -- most of those mythical and legendary types were ;-)

I saw a bit of the battle scenes on a review on TV; the battle line was wider than that in front of the White City, by gum. Just because we now have a computer program that can do these things, does it mean that we must do these things...? Pity.

I look forward to seeing it. Except for Orlando Bloom's watered-down part, sigh.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I only ever saw Brad Pitt once before, as the horrible villain in Kalifornia.

You also saw him in Interview with the Vampire, although perhaps you do not remember that long bus ride we had to take to get to that one ;-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

No, and I'd forgotten he was in it - he was Louis, right? I didn't like Louis so I obviously forgot the performance! Of course I was forgetting several other movies I've seen him in - Fight Club, Spy Game, A River Runs Through It (which bored me so much I remember nothing), and Thelma and Louise. Huh. Clearly I tend to forget about him, in general. It isn't like Kevin Kline, whose appearance I forget from one movie to the next....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My knowledge of Aeneas is from authors like Racine and Corneille. My understanding was that Virgil took him from the Iliad for the Aenead, but I do wonder how well his identity is known these days. Characters like Hercules and Achilles turn up in cartoons and such, but I don't recall Aeneas ever doing so in my experience. I don't think he was ever a DC or Marcel character, like Hercules or the gods.

Just because we now have a computer program that can do these things, does it mean that we must do these things...?

I thought they got carried away with the excess, which constantly jolted me out of suspension of disbelief - it was too much.

Orlando Bloom looks good. But Hector and Achilles are the ones who are fun to look at - and Odysseus, of course.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Did you see how he purposely (and slowly) uncovers his buttocks, a lot?

I noticed. I also noticed how often he fell in such a way that his buttocks showed. Loved the tight black leather miniskirt on him.

Thanks for explaining about Achilles! I would have liked to have seen the Judgement of Paris, too. And the gods. But I guess the cast was already too big.

The CGI looked great to me, after seeing Van Helsing.

LOL. My problem was the scope, which was just so unconvincing to me.

The Greeks did look Persian, which was a little odd, when the movie said explicitly in the beginning that the Trojans were Greeks. So presumably they were Greeks with a difference.

It could've been better written. That was my biggest gripe.

Yup, that was the problem. What they had was really good, except for the words. Given that Homer is so dramatic and so expressive (even I know that much!), and that they had some first class actors, it was a big let-down to see disjointed schenes and to hear modernistic cliches and awkwardness in the words. I too enjoyed the movie despite my gripes, but it could have been so much better with a better script.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Quite a treat, actually. I feel as if I should send Brad Pitt a thank-you note.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the body on offer was fairly tasty.

Memorably so.


I think they were going for the Mycenean/Minoan look rather than classical Greek.

I thought that too, especially in a few details of clothing and hairstyles, including those on statues. But if so, they didn't quite get it right, so I felt ... confused. They were close. Sometimes they did get it right, and sometimes they got it wrong in the right sort of way, e.g., tight black miniskirt on Achilles.

at least one of the cups looked like a copy of one from a museum

Yes, and some of the shields looked familiar, as if reproduced from a famous statue or archeological find. A question for you: one moment I loved was when the Myrmidons first came onto the beach at Troy and covered themselves with their shields to advance, so their shields all fit together. In the National Arts Centre performance of Troilus and Cressida I once saw, they did the same thing right before Achilles killed Hector. Is this in Homer, or is it something that Greek soldiers were known to do, or is it extrapolation of strategy? I like it, in any case.

Thanks for the details about Achilles.

I wondered if they may have been trying to look at different attitudes to war

Could be, which is a rather interesting way of approaching the story. There were so many different motives and different attitudes, from greedy and belligerent Agamemnon to glory-seeking Achilles to honour-driven Hector to victimized Briseis and so on.

If that was their theme I thought LOTR did it much better.

Very true!

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

Greeks with a difference! haha. I just assume that since Troy was on another continent - country that it wasn't Greek, but I understand I'm looking at it from a 21st geographical pov and not an ancient one.

Maybe they thought that Persian/Eastern look gave them a more menancing appearance, particularly for Aga and Menelaous, who are portrayed as evil since the movie is from Troy's pov. I dunno. heh.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Historically I don't think it is particularly known what race the Trojans were. In the later history that I know much better - Herodotus - the people living in Asia Minor were Greek, sometimes ruled by Persians.

Whatever it was supposed to be, I really did like Agamemnon's style.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Orlando Bloom as Paris was a pretty nitwit and a wimp.

To the best of my recollection, he is supposed to be a pretty nitwit and a wimp - so maybe they got him IC. ;)

Thanks for this review. I don't think I'll bother to watch that. There's adaptations, and then there's adaptations that leave out the heart of the story.

[kathyh]

A question for you: one moment I loved was when the Myrmidons first came onto the beach at Troy and covered themselves with their shields to advance, so their shields all fit together. In the National Arts Centre performance of Troilus and Cressida I once saw, they did the same thing right before Achilles killed Hector. Is this in Homer, or is it something that Greek soldiers were known to do, or is it extrapolation of strategy? I like it, in any case.

So do I. I thought that was very cool. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to the question of whether it was in Homer or not. It's a long time since I've read it but I do remember single warriors covering one another with their shields when injured but not an organised battle tactic like that. I wondered if they'd got the idea from the Roman testudo. Strategically correct or not I still like it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It reminded me of the Roman testudo too, though I don't think the Greeks ever did that. In the NAC production, their shields were irregular shapes, so that when they held them together, they were like a jigsaw puzzle which formed a perfect bronze circle reflecting the stage lights. Very impressive. Memorable.

Now I feel the urge to do more research into the subject. I have Fagle's translation of the Iliad on request at the library in both audiobook and book form. Let's see what I make of it! I wish I had a dictionary of classical literature and mythology. Guess I'll put it on my shopping list....

Hey, wait a minute, wasn't I in the middle of reading Beowulf? How easily distracted can I be?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

he is supposed to be a pretty nitwit and a wimp - so maybe they got him IC. ;)

True enough. I think my objection is that beside being a pretty nitwit and a wimp he was a dull nitwit and nymph. Still... very pretty. My feelings remain mixed.

Really, despite the negative tone of my comments, the movie is worth seeing. I don't think it's a good as it could have been or should have been, but it isn't boring; I'm still thinking about it and analyzing it in my head three days later.

Was the heart of the story missing? I don't know; I don't know what the heart of the story is. Perhaps, at the end of the movie, I should have known.

I've been finding discussions of it extremely interesting.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

For me the heart of it is the interactions between Gods and humans and how they affect everything. That's the depth of the whole story. Also Hecuba.

If they left those out aspects out, what's left? A bunch of males fighting? Thanks, but not for me. I can just watch the news. (Yes, i know these boysare more decorative ;) )

I'll probably watch it when it comes on cable or something, but there's nothing there to draw me out of my chair.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

For me the heart of it is the interactions between Gods and humans and how they affect everything.

Yes, I really would have liked to have seen that. Maybe the next time they decide to make a movie of Homer, we'll get it.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

Yeah, braids rock. ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and the sort of faux-Mycenean style suited him with his bluster and his love of power and showiness. Beautifully done, and a nice contrast to the artistic delicacy of Priam.