(no subject)

[fajrdrako]

Another busy week. Good things happening.

Friday:

• Dinner with maaseru at Sushi 88. I love that place. Once again I had the unagi rice, and my intent was to have nothing else, but how could I resist a dish called "squiddy tempura"? So I had that too. Loved the chewy "squiddy".


• Great mail: Christmas cards, many from the Piffle crowd, and a wonderful, wonderful present: The Return of the King Extended Edition DVD from gem225. I am just so happy to get this. What a great gift.


• Started reading a biography of Alexander the Great by Ulrich Wilcken. It was written in 1931, so it isn't the latest word, but I'm enjoying the way it presents the different approaches to Alexander's life and reign, and makes me somewhat familiar with the orignal sources. I want to read more recent books too, but they're still on request at the library. Why are so many of the books about Alexander which the library holds, written for children?


• I'm also reading Greek Homosexuality by K.J. Dover, which is fascinating, but not answering the questions I had in mind. I note that most (or all) of his written sources are Athenian writings or Athenian law. Athens was not all of Greece. Am I to conclude that the Athenian customs and attitudes were indicative of the rest of Greek culture? No, clearly not, since the point is made over and over that the law was different for Athenians and non-Athenians, and that standards were different. Anyway, it's interesting reading just for a look at the time and place. Once again I am impressed by the scarcity of evidence and the way a small body of information has been made to provide a bigger picture - whether that picture is accurate or not.


Saturday:

• A run to the stores at South Keys, where I got Christmas candy moulds and chocolate, and some gifts at Chapter's, and cat-design rubber stamps for Margot (aged 9) at Michael's.


• Christmas baking: I made ginger cookies in Christmas shapes. Haven't done that for years. The recipe I was using turned out not to be the one I thought it was - I wonder where I put the old one? It was good anyway, but now I'm in search of ginger cookie recipes.


• A visit to blackbyrde with maaseru, maaboroshi and lmondegreen to watch The Return of the King Extended Edition and eat delicious snacks. We liked everything but Shelob, especially the Faramir bits.


Sunday:

• I made candy in the candy moulds, and a grasshopper pie. Went to Pat and Sandi's place for a Christmas dinner with them and other friends: turkey with all the trimmings (I brought the cranberry sauce), mixed vegetables, mashed potatoes, homemade bread, homemade wine (extraordinarily good), and for dessert my grasshopper pie. Complete with jokes about catching and mashing the grasshoppers.


Monday:

• maaboroshi sent me the URLs for some good sites about Josh Holloway - Sawyer in Lost, the bad boy with dimples. I then wasted - I mean, spent - several hours browsing them and looking for good Lost pictures, especially wallpaper and icons.

Comments

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

I'm also reading Greek Homosexuality by K.J. Dover, which is fascinating, but not answering the questions I had in mind. I note that most (or all) of his written sources are Athenian writings or Athenian law. Athens was not all of Greece. Am I to conclude that the Athenian customs and attitudes were indicative of the rest of Greek culture? No, clearly not, since the point is made over and over that the law was different for Athenians and non-Athenians, and that standards were different.

At the time it was written, Dover was a revolutionary text for having addressed the topic at all. It remains the authority, despite certain weaknesses, including this one, simply because noone else has revisited the area.

I think it would be fair to say that this Athenian bias has traditionally been a weakness in Hellenic Studies, and continues to colour how lay people view Ancient Greece as a whole.

In part, it stems simply from the fact that no other polis or region left a written record as extensive as that of Athens. We just don't *have* law cases, and political speeches, and all the other documents we have for Athens. The sqeaky wheel gets the oil, and Athenian culture and society was such that they wrote the most down. As time has gone by, and we've learned more from archaeology and non-written sources, we've learned more about other cities, but you can't really draw much of a conclusion about people's intimate lives from that. Secondarily, western classicists have traditionally admired Athens so much that they've let it colour their views. Simply by being the enemy, Sparta never used to get a fair shake at all.

It's ironic that discussion of ancient sexuality today, and specifically of Alexander and Hephaistion at the moment, tends to draw the (correct) reaction: "But we can't really judge it by today's standards"; only to fall back into applying Athenian standards of a century earlier, which aren't much more relevant. I suspect traditionalists are willing to accept institutionalised or ritualised short term homosexual patterns more easily than the possibility that it could have been a longlasting lifestyle choice.

It's a long time since I last picked up Dover, so I can't remember what else he does refer to, but I'm sure he covers at least briefly the Theban Band, the barracks at Sparta, and the kidnap ritual in [Boeotia?], all of which are quite different.

Macedonian society, too, was notoriously different. Wasn't it Demosthenes who said of the Royal Cavalry that they were "not hetairoi but hetairai"? ie, not companions but whores. The Macedonians were of Dorian descent, and it was a trope in Athens that homosexuality was a Dorian custom. Hence Dorian Gray, and early gay rights organisation the Dorian Society.

Apologies for sermonising. :-D

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Apologies for sermonising. :-D

You apologize -- ! My goodness, if you knew how happy I was to have someone willing to discuss this with me - I should give you a medal or something. My fascination with history is usually a solitary activity and too often I make my (many) comments to polite silence.

In part, it stems simply from the fact that no other polis or region left a written record as extensive as that of Athens.

I was suspecting that was probably the case. My field was medieval history, where it is true that history centres on the writings and evidence we have - little islands of information in seas of silent mystery. I suspect the classical and pre-classical age was no more heterogeneous, but we can't fabricate evidence from nothing Thank goodness for archeologists. Thank goodness for what writings we do have.

Simply by being the enemy, Sparta never used to get a fair shake at all.

Which makes Spartans more intriguing to me. For some reason I am often drawn to the mysterious and inimical societies on the edges of the written history - Sarmatian and Scythians and Celts and Picts and so on. Hence my championing of the Persians when I was studying Herodotus as an undergraduate!

It's ironic that discussion of ancient sexuality today, and specifically of Alexander and Hephaistion at the moment, tends to draw the (correct) reaction: "But we can't really judge it by today's standards"; only to fall back into applying Athenian standards of a century earlier, which aren't much more relevant.

And we really have no way of judging that relative relevance one way or another. We can only guess and extrapolate with as much information as we can find and as much rational thought as we are possible of. It seems that the world at large doesn't handly sexual matters very rationally at all. And of course we can only see it from the point of view of our own minds and the society which shaped us.

I'm sure he covers at least briefly the Theban Band, the barracks at Sparta, and the kidnap ritual in [Boeotia?], all of which are quite different.

Yes. I'm still reading the first quarter of the book, so I've no idea yet where he goes from here. I'm going to take a break from it because Interlibrary Loan came up with A.B. Bosworth's Conquest and Empire, which I started reading on the bus on the way home. Fascinating material about Phillip, so far. But I wish I could understand his Latin quotations without needing my dictionary.

I feel so ignorant on the background here; were the Dorians a racial/tribal/national group, or a linguisitic group, or a geographical differentiation?

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

Hence my championing of the Persians when I was studying Herodotus as an undergraduate!

I was notorious my Honours year for being the only person in Athenian Imperialism that didn't worship Athens. I always argued for Sparta. They had a t-shirt printed for my birthday with the Aristophanes quote on it: "long haired, tassel fringed, pro-Spartan, hand in glove with Brasidas".

Wilcken and Bosworth, eh? I keep meaning to get a list of recs to you. I've just special ordered the new bio - "Hunt for a New Past" by Paul Cartledge. I really liked the abstract so am looking forward to it.

The Dorians are a somewhat vexed question. It's certainly one of the three main linguistic groups - Attic which the Athenians spoke, Ionic which the Ionians (ie the Greeks in Asia Minor), and Doric - the Greeks in the North and the plains, also the Spartans. Tradition had it the three groups descended from three brothers, the sons of Hellen, father of the Greek race, so there is a racial/tribal implication too, certainly, but the geography is more murky.

Historically there's a lot of argument about the so-called Dorian invasion, when these rougher, less civilised types came down from the North. I suspect it's Athenian propaganda to make the Spartans look inferior. It's one reason the Athenians are so keen on their autochthonous myths - being born from the Attic soil they've always been there, and don't come from anywhere else.

Interestingly, it was a known danger sign when Alexander switched from (learned) Attic to the Doric of his childhood - notably just before he killed Kleitos.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I was notorious my Honours year for being the only person in Athenian Imperialism that didn't worship Athens. I always argued for Sparta.

A woman after my own heart! I was the only one in the Herodotus seminar championing the Persians. Your T-shirt sounds wonderful.

I keep meaning to get a list of recs to you.

Yes, please. I would appreciate it. So far (except for Bosworth, which I got on ILL) I am simply plundering the local library's card catalogue under "subject: Alexander the Great". I know how feeble I believe their holdings to be on the history I am more familiar with, and I don't suppose it's any better with ancient history. But I'm still a neophyte in this field.

Thanks for explaining about the Dorians. No wonder I was unsure of their origins.

it was a known danger sign when Alexander switched from (learned) Attic to the Doric of his childhood -

That's fascinating for a number of reasons.

part i

[mieza.livejournal.com]

Don't have a lot to add for you to Arysteia's post. She's already summarized neatly most of the problems and issues with Dover. We are always prisoners of our evidence. :-)

But that book is still considered groundbreaking not only because he dared to tackle (frankly and without giggles or apologetics) a topic that too many classicists wouldn't. Of course, to be honest, he could get away with it because he WAS Ken Dover; a younger, less respected scholar might not have been taken seriously. It's a good example of how auctoritas in the field can be used positively. (g)

Anyway, there have been a number of works to come out since. Some while back, I did a little write-up for Thomas over at pothos.org, on ATG's sexuality (http://pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=42), and given the interest the film kicked up, I just revised it, to fix a few grammar things -- and also to update the texts referenced (Marilyn Skinner just came out with a new one, for instance). At the very beginning is an UBERbrief review of some of the better monographs on the subject (as in, I list them and that's about all (hee)). I point out the link in case you'd like some more books on the topic. There's also a brief discussion of the basic problems with the Dover, or penetration model applied outside of Athens.

On the Dorians, I think the "Dorian invasion" theory is just about dead, although without question, there were at least three main linguistic groups in ancient Greece: Ionic (best known via Athens but including several islands and Asian cities), Doric (Sparta, Thebes, Crete, etc.), and Aeolic (largely NW Greek). But beyond that, there are lots of variations, and I'm a historian, not a classicist, to really be able to discuss the fine points. I do know a bit about the Macedonian linguistic question, but again, I'm not a classicist or linguist. (g)

Modern theories of the Dorian invasion has some roots in, I fear, the Aryan supremacy movement. (As Arysteia notes, it's found in the ancient sources, too -- but with quite a different flavor. The Nazis admired the Spartans and rehabilitated them somewhat.) The basic insidious idea behind the modern theory is that "pure Aryan" stock came out of Europe (in fact, IE langauges probably originated in roughly Armenia and spread out from there), and from there, invaded other areas, conquering them (because they're so naturally superior [rolls eyes]). The Dorians were the last wave of these invaders to enter the Balkan peninsula, and thus, Dorians had the 'purest' Aryan blood compared to other Greeks from earlier waves (and were blond and tall, of course!). Ionian Greek blood had been 'tainted' by intermixing with the native (primitive) Pelagians. So of course the Dorians conquered them, and later, went on to beat the Athenians in the Pel War.

It's really a bunch of racial rubbish, as you can gather, based on archaeology that's long been superceded.

(cont.)

Re: part i

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

We are always prisoners of our evidence.

And always wishing for more. Yes.

Of course, to be honest, he could get away with it because he WAS Ken Dover; a younger, less respected scholar might not have been taken seriously. It's a good example of how auctoritas in the field can be used positively. (g)

Something to keep in mind! Despite the tone of my comments, I am impressed with the way Dover handles both evidence and language.

re Marilyn Skinner's new book, and others: I was amused to read Bosworth's comment that there has been so much Alexander research (he's talking about the 1980s, I think) that there was a new book published on the subject every year. To which I say: then why aren't they in my public library, hmm? I need to spend more time with the university card catalogues. But at least at the moment I have plenty to read.

And thanks for the link. I'll pursue it.

Modern theories of the Dorian invasion has some roots in, I fear, the Aryan supremacy movement.

Ahh, that again! I am vaguely familiar with this from Indian history; and increasingly read about scholars doubting that the Aryan invasion happened at all. It was a nice notion while it lasted, and perhaps a moral lesson in making assumptions that linguistic change would come about through warfare. Well, sometimes it does - look at the effect of the Norman invasion on England. Well documented, too. So if Doric was an Indo-European language, surely it was simply a later or different form than Iolic or Aolic - which were also IE languages, surely? Or am I speaking in total ignorance? (Making a note to myself to read more on this. And no, I don't aspire to be a classicist or linguist, I'm just irrepressibly curious!)

I wish those Nazi theorists had kept their fingers out of historical theory - they added moral taint to subjects that should never have been messed with, leaving their effect still fifty years later, with no more effect than to complicate the issue - but that's historiography for you.

Re: part i

[mieza.livejournal.com]

I suspect that most history is, in one way or another, influenced by the politics of the day. Today, for instance, doing Macedonian history, one can't help but confront the infamous Macedonian Question. If you'd like to read an amusing (and depressing) comment on how (and how much) that's affected scholarship on ancient Macedonia, find the book Classical Bearings by Peter Green (yes, that Peter Green). One of the chapter is on Macedonia (forget the number. The essay form is where Green is at his best as a writer, so the book is splendid, and the commentary scathing, but was very much reflective of the State of Things in the '90s.

As for Doric ... Doric, Ionic and Aeolic Greek are all forms of Greek. There are differences between them, but one could probably compare them to, say, British versus American (versus Australian) English. All are recognizably English, but can vary quite a bit in usage, both grammatically, and in common colloquialisms. You don't find too many Americans who express general approval with "brilliant!" That's usually reserved for something intellectual (or something shiny!). Also, all three can be more or less 'thick' in terms of dialect.

In Greece, too, what dialect spoken was also often connected to various takes on religious rituals, etc. Herakles, for instance, is a Dorian hero. Thesseus is a Ionian (and really, an Athenian) hero.

Does that help clear it up a bit?

The Macedonian language is a puzzle. It's called "Makedoniste" in the sources, which just means "speaking in the Macedonian manner." But is that a dialect of Greek, a particular way of speaking (like laconic), or a different language? Someone asked me about the language in a different forum, and in the interest of space, as LJ doesn't allow extensive comments, let me just point you there:
http://historyishappening.com/index.php?showtopic=148

Go down to the last post. :-)

Re: part i

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I suspect that most history is, in one way or another, influenced by the politics of the day.

So true. That is one of my joys of history, to try to rewrite it in my mind from the point of view of different participants. So often the known history is of only one viewpoint - an individual or a group, often the military victors.

I'm sure as I read more I'll become more comfortable with the Doric, Ionic and Aeolic Greek differentiations. So far it makes sense on a theoretic level but I'm never sure how to apply it to the reality.... I can't help thinking of it as other threefold differentiations, like the Vedic gunas or Celtic charms. Maybe it's wiser to think of it as braided threads of linguistic or cultural traditions.... colouring the weave of the whole.

And to some extent the point is not just how these groups of people (city-states, races, whatever) differed but how they perceived themselves as differing - not quite the same thing but equally significant.

I find the question of the Macedonian speech fascinating and I'm going to your link now. Thank you!

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

I'm a historian, not a classicist

I find this statement fascinating. Not least because when I get into fights heated debates I tend to wind up shouting "Classicists are historians too, god damn it!!!"

I think the divide is probably different here, because you can't *do* "Ancient History" the way you can in the States - you either do modern history or classics. And if you're a real classicist you do Latin and Greek, and if you're not you do "Classical Studies" in English. I remember the lather my Latin teacher used to get into when she heard the CS students saying they were doing Classics.

I began my Classics degree very focused on history - it was my first love, and my history teacher was broken hearted when I announced that I'd be studying the Cold War no longer, as Athenian Imperialism had quite stolen me away. "I'm still a historian, though," I insisted. But then even that changed, as I discovered my real passion was actually literature after all.

You must have studied Greek too though? Forgive me for being too lazy to go and remind myself. So at what point are you not a classicist - because you don't do lit and art?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what the difference was between history and classics in my Canadian university; I do know that the history class I took studying Herodotus was officially in the Classics department, yet counted towards credits in the History department. I did not study Latin or Ancient Greek, and wish now I had - though one can only take so many subjects at once, unfortunately. (I studied Latin by correspondence, later.)

as Athenian Imperialism had quite stolen me away.

I can understand that - escpecially compared to the Cold War, which I found very dull in high school and never studies afterwards. Not that we got much Cold War. Mostly we got Canadian-American relations and post-Confederation history, even more boring than the Cold War.

I too have a passion for literature. What in particular are you passionate about?

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

I loved the Cold War - it's what I would have specialised in had I stayed in History. And also what we refer to here as the Nuclear Age. My pet area was the break up of Yugoslavia. I was one up on the pure historians because I knew the Serb/Croat divide went back to Diocletian and the split of the Roman empire, and understood the linguistic and religious background. Who says classics doesn't help you understand the contemporary world? :-D

My great love is epic poetry. I'm a bit like Alexander, with the Iliad under my pillow. But also tragedy. I became particularly entranced by how certain characters changed over time and across genre - Odysseus, for example from the hero of the Iliad, to the new man of the Odyssey, to the villain of Philoktetes.

It's where I get my nexus with Smallville - ah how it all comes back to that in the end :-D. No high minded conversation I can't bring down. But over time I've become more intrigued by the "myth" of Alexander rather than the history. And SV season 1 was the next great chapter in the Alexander Romance. I'm fascinated by the fact that Alexander's ambition is shorthand for Luthor overreaching, and rivalry with a brilliant father leads to the desire do great things (specifically contrasted with *good* things), but a miserable childhood and a passionate friendship are used to balance the scale and evoke sympathy. It's brilliant, even if the writers were sorcerer's apprentices.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I loved the Cold War - it's what I would have specialised in had I stayed in History.

Oh wow. Really? Perhaps my disenchantment with it was based on my ignorance, but (like all Canadian history) it was way too modern to catch my interest.

My pet area was the break up of Yugoslavia.

Okay, I concede - that is interesting. But, see, it hadn't happened yet when I was in high school.

And of course a knowledge of the classics helps us to understand our world. Unquestionably!

I just read The Iliad a few months ago - in the Fagles translation - I absolutely loved it. I was about to start reading The Odyssey when I got distracted by this Macedonian and Hellenistic history. I'll get back to it at some point. If only I had more time to read!

Who wrote Philoktetes?

It's where I get my nexus with Smallville - ah how it all comes back to that in the end :-D. No high minded conversation I can't bring down.

Oh, bite your tongue woman - there is nothing lowbrow about Smallville. That's some first-class myth-building, and it's way more clever than most fans give it credit for. (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.) Not only do they tell a good coming-of-age story, and revise a story that has been told in a way that makes it fresh and unpredictable even for a jaded old comic book reader like myself, it uses colour and composition and juxtaposition of symbols to communicate concepts from the old comics in new and different ways.

SV season 1 was the next great chapter in the Alexander Romance.

One of the reasons for which I loved it.

I'm fascinated by the fact that Alexander's ambition is shorthand for Luthor overreaching, and rivalry with a brilliant father leads to the desire do great things

Making the fictional history of Superman's world a parellel in yet another way to our world, or aspects of it. Are you familiar with the history of DC comics? It's from "Superman" and "Wonder Woman "that I first learned about Greek mythology as a kid - just as I learned Norse and northern mythology from Marvel's "Thor". There's a wealth of interplay there between history-as-myth (including the epic literature) and modern fantasy as myth, that has always fascinated me. Now, the comic has never (as far as I know) made the parallel between Lex Luthor and Alexander the Great, but it's a wonderful extrapolation from the original sources and a very direct analogy that anyone can appreciate.

It's brilliant, even if the writers were sorcerer's apprentices.

The writers at best are unappreciated geniuses; at worst, idiot savants who have forgotten the tune they're playing. I don't know if you are familiar with Jeph Loeb's work - he's one of the major consultants on the show, and he's one of the best writers in comics today. He definitely knows what he's doing, knows how to intermingle the resonance of myth with action-adventure and character's inner depths - without the least bit of pretensiousness.

Oops... you got me on one of my favourite topics and distracted me, just for a minute there, from my Greek obsessions. How clever of you.

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

you got me on one of my favourite topics and distracted me, just for a minute there, from my Greek obsessions

How clever of me indeed! And it was such a struggle, considering they're my two chief obsessions... *whistles innocently*

In part, I think I had a, not unique, but less usual perspective on the Cold War. My family were Russian Greeks (Greek Russians? I don't know how it works) so I knew Russians couldn't possibly be bad per se, and I was inclined from a young age to be perverse, and root for the under dog. Spartans, Russians... But I also knew that at some point we'd stopped being Russian and were just Greek, to the extent that my sisters didn't even know. And that annoyed me. And from that sympathy grew a genuine interest.

Philoktetes is Sophokles. And a great read, as Philoktetes (Homeric heroism) and Odysseus (modern pragmatism) fight it out for the soul of Neoptolemos (youthful idealism).

As for Smallville, I think it both is and isn't more clever than people give it credit for. I agree with you, it *is* first class myth-building, unfortunately it falls down too often on plain old fashioned *story telling*. Which is why I adore the fan community, mythmakers all.

I remember Greek myth from Wonder Woman quite strongly, less so from Superman. It was all science and modern technology when I started reading. I didn't think Lex=Alexander was in the comics either, so I'm glad you think so too. The first I recall of it was actually Lois and Clark where Lex had Alexander's sword in his office (it looked suspiciously like a mediaeval broadsword) and pontificated about seizing the high ground. He didn't have the personality though. SV took that ball and ran with it, and boy, am I glad that they did.

I'm not really familiar with JL, I don't do more than browse comic stores any more, but I wish the writers paid more attention to him. I like SV least when it verges on teen romance.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it was such a struggle, considering they're my two chief obsessions...

I would accuse you of leading me astray, except that I am clearly already astray. In the most delightful ways.

My family were Russian Greeks (Greek Russians? I don't know how it works)

You would know better than I. What an interesting background.

I knew Russians couldn't possibly be bad per se

Good for you! When I was very young my father was studying Russian at night school, and I can recall my parents carefully telling me that, regardless of the propaganda I might see on American TV, Russians were good people. I took it to heart.

Philoktetes sounds terrific - and is now on my (rapidly growing) reading list. I don't think I've ever read Sophocles, though I've seen a few of his plays. I did read (and love) some Aeschylus, back in my university days. Didn't study it, just read it.... Always wanted to go back and read more.

it *is* first class myth-building, unfortunately it falls down too often on plain old fashioned *story telling*

Ah - yes, you're right there. I'd like to think that it was through being too clever and failing to communicate what they intend to, or through trying too hard to create multiple levels of meaning; but sadly, all too often they simply screw up the simple, obvious stuff. In my opinion the 'teen romance' angle would be much more interesting if Chloe had more of a part in it. But that's just my own bias showing - Chloe is my second-favourite character, next to Lex.

Which is why I adore the fan community, mythmakers all.

Yes, absolutely. Picking up the pieces and playing with them. Very creatively, too.

My memories of the Superman comic are mostly from the early sixties. I stopped reading DC comics when Marvel comics came along with the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and X-Men, all in the space of a few years. But I remember many myths and mythic references from Superman, particularly in his battles with Circe.

I wish Lex in Smallville would make classical references now, in fourth season. Or historical references of any type. I love his breadth of interests and don't think they play it up enough. I take it on faith that he's a inventor, skilled in biochecmistry, maths and physics, and the arts - as well as a competent (and cutthroat) business man. I just wish they'd show us more.

Jeph Loeb is currently writing Superman/Batman, and writing it very beautifully, playing the relationship between the two protagonists as being both a close, warm affection and a contrast in personality and methods. But if I were recommending Loeb stories I'd point to his Batman work, such as The Long Halloween or Dark Victory or Hush.

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

I wish Lex in Smallville would make classical references now, in fourth season.

Oh, how I miss them!

I take it on faith that he's a inventor, skilled in biochemistry, maths and physics, and the arts - as well as a competent (and cutthroat) business man. I just wish they'd show us more.

Me too. It's why I love stories where talented writers fill in some of those blanks. I always come from the classical perspective myself (quel surprise) but some of the scientific ones have blown me away too. Above all, I think Lex's pothos, in an Alexandrine sense, is just to *know*. About Clark, obviously, but also about everything else that catches his eye.

But if I were recommending Loeb stories...

*feels an old love calling me home*
*wonders where I will find time*

I'm glad to hear the old Superman/Batman affection is back, despite the contrast. I hate it when people simplistically play it up as conflict.

[mieza.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I do read Greek.

Here in the states, there's really a three-fold division that overlaps: Classics, history, archaeology. We all have to do bits of it all. Before coming to UNO, I taught for both Religion and Classics and Ancient Mediterranean Studies at PSU ... not in the history department.

The reason I say I'm a historian is that I deal primarily with texts (unlike an archaeologist) and I evaluate the texts primarily in terms of what they say about historical events (as opposed to Classics). I'm also less familiar with and fluent in the language than most Classicists. I can teach baby Greek maybe up through half the 2nd semester, but I don't trust myself beyond that. (In general, American ancient historians [as opposed to classicists] will always be poorer in the languages than their British counterparts.)

I'm more inclined to evaluate Euripides Trojan Women for what it might say about dissent in Athens during the Pel War than for theme or particular uses of language.

But as a historian, one can't ignore language. I've dealt with specific translations of a word or word usage and connotation. It's more for how it's applied. There's a different thrust and tone to history versus literary. I have my undergrad degree in English lit and creative writing, actually, so I do have some background in that arena, as well. How I would evaluate Home as a literary piece or examine the language of the text isn't the same as how I'd discussion the issues of what era's social history it reflects.

[arysteia.livejournal.com]

Thank you, that's great. I'm always intrigued with where the overlap is on our hypothetical Venn diagram.

It's a soft spot for me because I had the devil of a time when I did my education diploma, getting the powers that be to recognise my history qualifications as well as my classics ones. I had years more experience in methodology, and historiography especially, than most of my classmates, but because the bulk of my course work was coded CLAS rather than HIST it didn't seem to count.

[mieza.livejournal.com]

but because the bulk of my course work was coded CLAS rather than HIST it didn't seem to count.

Which is really too bad, because it seems to me that in order to do ANY of those prongs well, one has to have a working grasp of the other two. I can't imagine doing Classics and NOT knowing a thing or two about historiography. But that may be my historian's bias. I'm always interested about the author's social and political reference points with regard to his (or her) text. E.g, one cannot read Thucydides' accounts of Perdikkas of Macedon and his dealings with Brasidas without keeping in mind that Thucydides fought up there and was defeated. Naturally, he's not going to paint a pretty picture of Perdikkas, who becomes a waffler [shades of recent debates (g)] and untrustworthy ally, as he changed sides 11 times. Turn it and consider from a northern angle, and Perdikkas was just doing his damn best to keep the much weaker (militarily) Macedonia from becoming an absolute vassal of either Sparta or Athens. He was a very good Macedonian king, which was, of course, at odds with Athenian imperialist ambitions. But to me, that aids a whole shade of interest to Thucydides writing about Macedonia. But it's quite a different concern from debates over language in The Funeral Oration. (g)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think both the historical analysis and the linguistic analysis have their place, but I'm happier to think about historical analysis myself and leave the linguistic analysis to other people so I can read about their results.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do read Greek/

Envious. I am in chapter two of Peter Jones' book "Learn Ancient Greek" and enjoying it thoroughly but haven't spent the time on it that I should, in order to progress beyond chapter two. I will persevere - but at the moment I'm focussing on secondary sources in English.

I like all your comments about the differences between classicists, historians and archaeologists. I think of myself as a historian, though 'dilettante with historical training' might be more accurate.

I found the implications for social history in the Iliad to be utterly fascinating.

part ii

[mieza.livejournal.com]

By contrast, one of the main arguments against any such invasion -- which supposedly occurred at the end of the Bronze Age and was part of the reason for the collapse of the Mycenaean palaces -- concerns artifacts found in that destruction-level strata. If you have an invading people and a defending people -- and they're different people -- what do you expect to find in the archaeological record? Why, two different types of weaponry styles, right?

We don't find any difference in the weapons. In short, the people who attacked the Mycenaean palaces didn't come any further than the palace fields. What appears to have happened involved a Mediterranean-wide drought that hit Greece, Asia Minor and the mid-east. Drought in subsistance level societies always leads to famine. We see as much as a 90% drop in populations in parts of Greece (although some of that is due to people fleeing, not just people dying). Where were the stores of food kept? In the palaces. So the starving peasants in the field stormed the citadels. That's your Dorian invasion. (g)

Now keep in mind that my data on this is 10 years old now. And I was never a specialist on the Mycenaean period or the dark age. If you want Dark Age, read Carol Thomas, Kurt Rauflaab or Nancy Demand, who've forgotten more than I know.

Speaking of Nancy Demand, she has a nice little History of Ancient Greece, but it's a bit pricey, I'm afraid, even in paperback. A couple of other books that might be of interest are Frank Frost's Greek Society (now in its 5th edition, I think?), which deals with social history. Frank discusses the so-called Dorian Invasion and addresses, much more fully and accurately, some of what I outlined above. Last, a book that I assign students as a good overall history that's more recent is Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History, by Sarah Pomeroy, Stanley Burnstein, Walter Donlan, et al. Oxford publishes it, and it's fast becoming something of a standard text for basic Greek History classes. :-) If you were to invest in only one book on Greek history and culture, that last is the one I'd suggest.

Which is all MUCH more than you wanted, I'm sure, but I figure book suggestions never hurt. :)

Re: part ii

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So the starving peasants in the field stormed the citadels. That's your Dorian invasion.

Which actually makes for a more exciting story. And a plausible one. Do we have any kind of date attached to these events?

If you want Dark Age, read Carol Thomas, Kurt Rauflaab or Nancy Demand

Will do! (Scribbling notes.) After I've read more of the Alexandrian material. And thanks for the book recommendations: I'll probably buy it but will first exhaust my library options.

Which is all MUCH more than you wanted

No, not at all! I am so greedy for information, and I find these subjects fascinating - I wish I could keep you talking all day. I fear my questions are at such a kindergarten level they aren't very interesting - yet.

I'm finding the historiography of Alexander quite fascinating - the way the extant sources are from long after his death, and yet he changed the world so much in his time. I've always felt that the Romans had an interesting double-vision of the Greeks, respecting their culture and yet not necesarily respecting them militarily or politically. It makes Hellenistic culture all the more intriguing to me.

I find Bosworth so far particularly interesting with regard to Phillip of Macedon - I hadn't quite realized his significance before, since his historical role seems usually to come up as 'Alexander's father' rather than for his own accomplishments.

Re: part ii

[mieza.livejournal.com]

Philip of Macedon is fascinating. There are three pretty good summaries of him:

J.R. Ellis, Philip II and Macedonian Imperialism

G.T. Griffith's chapters on Philip in A History of Macedonia vol. II, N.G.L. Hammond and G.T. Griffith

E.N. Borza's chapter "The Greatest of the Kings of Europe," in In the Shadow of Olympus, which is about Philip. You might find that whole book of use, for Macedonian background.

George Cawkwell also has a pretty good bio on Philip, though I like Ellis' better. And Julia Heskel has also done work on Philip, mostly in article form.

I used to joke with people that, if forced to be stuck in an elevator for 15 minutes with Alexander or with Philip, I'd choose Philip, hands down. (G)

Re: part ii

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The only J.R. Ellis in the public library wrote about nuclear physics. I'll get Philip II and Macedonian Imperialism from ILL when I've finished reading Bosworth. (Or when I've been forced to return it, whichever comes first.) They do have the Cawkwell book, which I have requested.

At the moment I'd rather be stuck in an elevator with Philip than with Alexander too, though that may change when I've read more about Alexander. Why do you think that?

Truly tasteless and corny joke:

[lmondegreen.livejournal.com]

I'm also reading Greek Homosexuality by K.J. Dover

Shouldn't the author's first name be 'Ben'?

Re: Truly tasteless and corny joke:

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

LOL. I wish!

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll bite. If it's not grasshoppers (*shudder*) in grasshopper pie, then what is it?

And I finally succumbed and downloaded the Lost pilot. I've watched part one so far - it's okay, but hasn't really grabbed me. We'll see if part two makes more of an impact...

Any comments on my dvd list? Or does the fact that you haven't commented mean there was nothing you fancied? In which case, I'll try and get round to making some sort of cd list - there are rather more of them, so it's a bit of a daunting task! ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Grasshopper pie: it emulates the drink. It's chocolate-flavoured crust with peppermint-flavoured filling. Actually it's mostly whipping cream.

Hmm, wonder if you'll like Lost better as it goes. I was hooked early on. Still am.

Oops - sorry I haven't commented on the DVD list yet. Will do so soon. I don't remember exactly but I think I already had the things I wanted on your list - so bring on the CDs!

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Ah, so grasshoppers taste of mint chocolate. *g*

Heh, the question is whether I'll like Lost enough to go on downloading it. Actually, I have to confess that I only downloaded it because BSG is having a break till the New Year - I am devastated at missing my weekly dose of Crumpet and was forced to seek consolation elsewhere...

The adsl package I'm currently subscribed to only allows 3GB of downloads per month. I went over that last month and had to pay to get my service back. Not sure that Lost is worth having that happen again. In the meantime, I am looking for a service provider with a better deal. And once I get unlimited downloads, there will be no stopping me. *eg*

PS That's Kate in your icon, isn't it?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

BSG is having a break till the New Year

You're downloading it? It still hasn't aired in Canada as far as I know. (Grumble. Grump. Whimper.)

I went over that last month and had to pay to get my service back.

Oh, no!

If you like it enough to watch it but not enough to download it, I could probably tape it for you. It might take a while, though. On the other hand, it would be an excuse to watch each episode twice.

once I get unlimited downloads, there will be no stopping me

Scary thought.

Yes, my current icon is Kate. I think she's gorgeous. Interesting, too. But like all Lost characters, enigmatic.

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm downloading BSG. And I bought the pilot (miniseries?) on dvd. I was quite surprised you didn't ask me for a copy of the pilot - it was on my dvd list. Or was that an oversight on your part? Not too late to be remedied, if it was. :)

I can send you the downloads too, if you like - nine episodes so far. Let me know.

Thanks for the offer but I'll probably download the rest of Lost eventually. What I really really want is Century City - as I said, I'll gladly reimburse you for the tapes/dvds and postage, if you can see your way to getting copies made. Just a reminder! ;)

I watched the second half of the Lost pilot today - and found out that it was Kate in handcuffs on the plane. Kate! And I like Sayid - I've liked Naveen Andrews ever since seeing him as Kip in The English Patient. Talking of which, I have the TEP special edition sitting here beside me. I'm looking forward to the commentaries and all the lovely special features! Still no RotK, *sulk*, but I do have other things with which to distract myself. Oh yess, precious, we does!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I would love a copy of the DVD of BSG. It wasn't so much an oversight as the optimistic thought htat I might be able to tape it myself, but alas, they haven't rerun it lately. I give up.

The downloads - oh, yes! yes! yes! Please!

Yup, I'm trying to get Century City for you. Just haven't got my act together yet to make second copies. I'll try to do it soon.

Kate in handcuffs - nice twist, huh? That's one of the things I love about this show - the more we know, the more we know that what we have assumed to be true quite possibly isn't. I like Sayid too. Most sexy. And I confess, I'm a huge Sawyer fan.

Is TEP a DVD you could copy for me- ? I'd love that one. That would be one of my favourite movies ever, if only I liked ... I can't even think of her name ... the woman in the lead role. (I think of her as "the cold blonde".) I adore Ralph Fiennes, Juliette Binoche and Naveen Andrews.

ROTK... I'm more in love with Aragorn (and Viggo Mortensen too, though I was slow to come to it) than before. I love the way you see as you watch the specials, that everyone in cast and crew, and horses too, seem to have succumed to the Viggo-adoration.

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

I'll get the BSG pilot copied - and I can easily put the episodes on cd. They're .avi files, so can only be watched on a computer, but they're amazingly good quality. Be aware that I'm motivated at least in part by a desire for someone I can have intelligent discussions with about BSG - as well as share frequent and fervent squeeing over Jamie as Apollo. *g*

Thanks again re. Century City - I haven't lost sight of Ioan in the midst of all the recent Jamie squee. And I recently downloaded a couple of CC clips which further whetted my appetite for the full episodes...

I'll get TEP copied for you too - Fabrizio has said he can do them for me. It is one of my favourite films ever - I adore Kristin Scott Thomas, even more than Juliette B. And Ralph Fiennes was an obsession at one time. *g* Why do you dislike KST as Katharine? She's not really cold - think of the bath scene, and the scene where Almasy is having her on, purportedly telling her the story of the Hungarian lament they're listening to - both such wonderful scenes. She's not cold, it's a veneer - as she says to Almasy when he accosts her at that dance, after they've split up, "Do you think you're the only one who feels anything?". Ooh, *shiver*. Maybe I should watch my new dvd this evening...

I'm hoping the Post Office will relent and deliver RotK soon - perhaps even tomorrow. So that I can join in the general drooling over Aragorn and Viggo. One lives in hope!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to watch files on my computer.

Kirstin Scott Thomas! - that was the name I keep forgetting. It isn't that I disliked her as Katherine, I just don't like the actress period, in anything at all. It's just one of those things. This isn't to say she spoiled The English Patient for me, just that she didn't appeal to me like the othercharacters did. Made it all kind of unbalanced. Fiennes was wonderful.

So do you have ROTK yet?

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

I just don't like the actress period

While I think she's wonderful. *g* So I take it you don't like her as Fiona in Four Weddings either?

And no, I don't have RotK yet. My brother's view that the Postal Orcs always go on unofficial strike between Christmas nad the New Year seems to be accurate. ::gnashes teeth and tears hair::

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I take it you don't like her as Fiona in Four Weddings either?

Well, I thought Fiona was hilarious, but I didn't really like KST, no. Despite her good performance.

My brother's view that the Postal Orcs always go on unofficial strike between Christmas nad the New Year seems to be accurate.

I am amazed that postal delivery would even be a possiblity. Here they *officially* don't work on holidays or weekends ever - and I don't expect they'll work at for another week or so. Not to sound jaded, but, really!